Woodstock

[Paul Dale]

The WPM team is looking into possible Woodstock firmware. Bernhard (of PANAMATIK fame) has offered us some very flexible hardware possibilities which is fantastic and very much appreciated. However, is anyone willing & able to produce replacement keys for the keyboard?

I'm not sure how difficult it is to open the sealed keyboard layer on these devices. They look heat sealed which is tricky. I'm planning on opening a broken one soon to see what's inside and how difficult they are to reseal. Still, it would be good to understand what people have done before.

I'm not up to the 3D design required -- think the key plus an inlaid keytop and probably an inlaid front face. Two or three colours. We'll also want three shift keys in three colours and an overlay for the front face (Bernhard does these in vinyl already).

Any volunteers for a thankless but fulfilling project?


Pauli

[Harald]

(01-18-2017 08:57 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The WPM team is looking into possible Woodstock firmware. Bernhard (of PANAMATIK fame) has offered us some very flexible hardware possibilities which is fantastic and very much appreciated. However, is anyone willing & able to produce replacement keys for the keyboard?

I'm not sure how difficult it is to open the sealed keyboard layer on these devices. They look heat sealed which is tricky. I'm planning on opening a broken one soon to see what's inside and how difficult they are to reseal. Still, it would be good to understand what people have done before.

I'm not up to the 3D design required -- think the key plus an inlaid keytop and probably an inlaid front face. Two or three colours. We'll also want three shift keys in three colours and an overlay for the front face (Bernhard does these in vinyl already).

Any volunteers for a thankless but fulfilling project?


Pauli

I have taken appart several woodstock keyboards and put them back togather. There are a couple of issuse:
Once the heat stakes have been cut down, on reasembly the PCB has to be glued to what is left of the heat stakes. You won't be able to do this a second time.
You have to carefully avoid glue getting onto the metal strips. If glue gets on there you have messed up your keyboard (I speak from experience here).

I understand that using a Woodstoock calculator is very tempting. I really like its form factor, too. But I'd like to suggest using a Classic again.
The keyboard is easily taken appart and put back togather.
There is an extra row of keys, so 35 instead of 30 keys are available
15 digit display instead of 12, with the limitation that a decmial point requires its own digit and two consecutive decimal points are not possible.

Cheers,
Harald

[BobVA]

(01-18-2017 08:57 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The WPM team is looking into possible Woodstock firmware. Bernhard (of PANAMATIK fame) has offered us some very flexible hardware possibilities which is fantastic and very much appreciated. However, is anyone willing & able to produce replacement keys for the keyboard?

I found this thread from 2011 with a discussion of producing hardware, including double-shot molded keys:

Garth Wilson Wrote:...Along with #1 above, we looked into a set of double-shot keys similar to the HP-71's. NRE was a few thousand-- I don't remember exactly, but it was under $5,000....

Which would seem to be pretty expensive spread over what's probably a market of a few dozen. There may be newer approaches that are cheaper, but that still leaves the installation challenge.

Another option: is there a way to reuse the current keys and try to push the extra functionality to an overlay? The HP-25 is relatively easy to source; I'd bet most people interested in this project probably already have one. It's got a good assortment of functions already printed on the keys and perhaps if we added one extra shift key the rest would fit on a high-quality overlay? (I've been very happy with the overlays for the WP series, it's the key stickers I'd like to avoid.)

The new shift key could be a custom 3D printed replacement, or a repainted original key, for the mechanically adventurous. Otherwise a sticker could be used if the owner didn't want to risk disassembly of the keyboard.

The downside of this approach would be getting a consensus for the (keyboard limited) set of new functions, of course. A more complicated but flexible approach would be to allow the owner to customize the setup based on their Woodstock of choice and their desired functions. For example: "I've got an HP-25 and want to add financial and statistics functions, along with a solver" would result in a custom firmware load and overlay that took into account the current button set.

In my head that would be done using radio buttons on web form, and the firmware and overlay artwork are then generated by a magical program I don't know how to write :-)

Thanks for bringing this up - it's fun to think about!

[PANAMATIK]

Even if I assume the WP-34 LED would be a highly used daily work horse and would deserve first class keys, the idea of making double injection mold custom buttons is IMO not realistic, because the costs will not pay. Also replacing the buttons of a Woodstock is quite difficult, as already mentioned.

I would provide a WP-34 Woodstock vinyl overlay including button overlays, if design of the layout is done. The overlays, which I already used have proven very reliable.

Bernhard

[hth]

In the past, the HP-12C has been out of the question as a basis for making new calculators due to its 7 segment display.

But now this is not a problem, if it has a LED display?

Apart from the display, the (new) HP-12C has a small form factor, is easy to find, comes with a modern ARM and reasonable amount of memory. It is not anything that can be expected to disappear from the market anytime soon either, given its track record so far...

What am I missing here?

Håkan

[anetzer]

(01-18-2017 08:57 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The WPM team is looking into possible Woodstock firmware. Bernhard (of PANAMATIK fame) has offered us some very flexible hardware possibilities which is fantastic and very much appreciated.

Aren't already slim ressources spread a bit too thin by such a project?

The logical candidate should be the DM42L

If old hardware with a processor upgrade, then why not the 41CL?

I see the advantages of the Woodstocks, but aren't there many more Fullnuts available (IF a vintage calc should indeed be used for such an effort)?

In my opinion LED displays are a nice thing, but after the WP-34S anything but a fully alphanumeric machine would be a major step backwards.

Just my three cents...

[hth]

(01-18-2017 08:13 PM)anetzer Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 08:57 AM)Paul Dale Wrote:  The WPM team is looking into possible Woodstock firmware. Bernhard (of PANAMATIK fame) has offered us some very flexible hardware possibilities which is fantastic and very much appreciated.

If old hardware with a processor upgrade, then why not the 41CL?

I see the advantages of the Woodstocks, but aren't there many more Fullnuts available (IF a vintage calc should indeed be used for such an effort)?

Two reasons, the 41CL will not run C/C++ (which I believe they want to use), and the already existing huge code base. It would not fly (as a WP*).

Håkan

[d b]

(01-18-2017 08:13 PM)anetzer Wrote:  .........The logical candidate should be the DM42L.........

I agree with you Anetzer. It's a beautiful package, with a great screen. If they are too busy with work, or interested in this LED project instead though; according to Michael Steinmann's youtube post (that I'm sure you've already read) here - the DM42L will ship with Thomas Okken's Free 42. There won't be a real need to improve on that for general purposes.

I'm saving my nickels and dimes for his DM43P, but the 42L will be a fine replacement for the HP42, with mass storage, program backup and an existing program library & manuals. If the Trinity end up taking it further someday, so much the better.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(01-18-2017 10:03 PM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  

(01-18-2017 08:13 PM)anetzer Wrote:  .........The logical candidate should be the DM42L.........

I agree with you Anetzer. It's a beautiful package, with a great screen.

I hope you all mean DM42P, that's the real treat! ;)

[d b]

Massimo;

That's the one I mentioned third to last. I've heard and read it called three names, which is OK since it's not yet up to Michael's customary high standards, and not being marketed yet. I've even read it being called the 34sii or something like that.

Anetzer and I were mainly talking about the DM42L, which he thinks would be a good next generation home for the 34S. However, it's still in the prototype stage too, isn't it? Anyway, I can't disagree with him.

Yes, whatever it gets named, that Swiss Micros portrait mode running Free 42 with 5 or so lines of display unit is the one I'm saving all my pennies for. That might be the last new calculator i ever buy. -db

[anetzer]

(01-18-2017 10:35 PM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  I hope you all mean DM42P, that's the real treat!

Indeed, the hardware platform that I do so earnestly hope to also reincarnate as as a DM41P.

But let us all first see it become available to the public...

[Paul Dale]

If we use DM hardware it will be for the WP-43S. The layout and functions are designed already (and look great) but it will remain a huge implementation task (which neither Marcus not I are able to commit to presently). I'd expect it would take two to three years to craft the required firmware -- this is in the same ball park as the 34S took and newRPL has taken.

The seven segment display is a huge limitation. The 12c probably isn't viable (I wish it were). It only has ten digits: lose 3 for the programme line number plus a fourth for a gap and there are eight positions left. A command with an argument will reduce this by three at the minimum which doesn't leave enough to reasonably display the function name. The woodstock has two extra digits which might just cope. The classics have three more but has the decimal limitation. Still, calculator corpse availability is a determining factor -- at least until a 3D printed body is available (anyone?).

We did agree on a name, the WP 29S. However, a woodstock based WP seems quite unlikely at this point.

I was thinking 3D printed keys which would be much cheaper than moulded keys (which are clearly not possible). Assuming we could find a 3D printer that could handle two colours.


Still, thanks everyone for the responses,

Pauli

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(01-19-2017 01:56 AM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  Yes, whatever it gets named, that Swiss Micros portrait mode running Free 42 with 5 or so lines of display unit is the one I'm saving all my pennies for. That might be the last new calculator i ever buy. -db

And that's the DM42P.

OK.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(01-19-2017 05:58 AM)anetzer Wrote:  Indeed, the hardware platform that I do so earnestly hope to also reincarnate as as a DM41P.

I am with you

(01-19-2017 05:58 AM)anetzer Wrote:  But let us all first see it become available to the public...

Sure. Eagerly awaiting...

[d b]

(01-19-2017 08:36 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 01:56 AM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  Yes, whatever it gets named, that Swiss Micros portrait mode running Free 42 with 5 or so lines of display unit is the one I'm saving all my pennies for. That might be the last new calculator i ever buy. -db

And that's the DM42P.

OK.

Thanks Massimo.
Perhaps you should let this thread which you had posted in know about the new official name then. The OP had also thought it is a DM43P.
And maybe this other thread where you answered that the future of the WP 43S is in Switzerland, and you were talking about Portrait mode, needs to know Michael's real name for it too. Otherwise, things get muddled.

I just want to own and use one, when it comes out (in the spring?). I really like my other Swiss Micros calculator. It is 4 level stack with a replicating T register RPN - so what's not to like? Whatever this new one gets named; any version running Free 42 with functions to handle the larger screen and usb is fine with me.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(01-20-2017 07:12 AM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 08:36 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  And that's the DM42P.

OK.

Thanks Massimo.
Perhaps you should let this thread which you had posted in know about the new official name then. The OP had also thought it is a DM43P.
And maybe this other thread where you answered that the future of the WP 43S is in Switzerland, and you were talking about Portrait mode, needs to know Michael's real name for it too. Otherwise, things get muddled.

I just want to own and use one, when it comes out (in the spring?). I really like my other Swiss Micros calculator. It is 4 level stack with a replicating T register RPN - so what's not to like? Whatever this new one gets named; any version running Free 42 with functions to handle the larger screen and usb is fine with me.

Den, where's the problem?

DM42(P) is the name of the new calculator featuring Free42. It should be available soon (WP43S or not).



If and when the WP43S will be implemented on real hardware it is possible/probable that the platform hosting it will be on the same hardware.

Clearer now? :)

[anetzer]

(01-20-2017 08:42 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  DM42(P) is the name of the new calculator

Ungrateful brat that I am: I just started wondering how on earth one could implement the HP-41 ON/USER and PRGM/ALPHA keys on this wonderful thing?

[hth]

(01-20-2017 06:27 PM)anetzer Wrote:  

(01-20-2017 08:42 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  DM42(P) is the name of the new calculator

Ungrateful brat that I am: I just started wondering how on earth one could implement the HP-41 ON/USER and PRGM/ALPHA keys on this wonderful thing?

There are 6 keys on the top that are not present on an HP-41, that should be enough?
In addition, there are also one extra column of keys.

Håkan

[Guenter Schink]

(01-20-2017 07:12 AM)Den Belillo (Martinez Ca.) Wrote:  

(01-19-2017 08:36 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  And that's the DM42P.

OK.

Thanks Massimo.
Perhaps you should let this thread which you had posted in know about the new official name then. The OP had also thought it is a DM43P.
And maybe this other thread where you answered that the future of the WP 43S is in Switzerland, and you were talking about Portrait mode, needs to know Michael's real name for it too. Otherwise, things get muddled.

I just want to own and use one, when it comes out (in the spring?). I really like my other Swiss Micros calculator. It is 4 level stack with a replicating T register RPN - so what's not to like? Whatever this new one gets named; any version running Free 42 with functions to handle the larger screen and usb is fine with me.

Hi Den,
perhaps you shouldn't miss the HHC quite so often
Michael Steinmann's least problem at the moment definitely is how this thing is named.

The credit size calcs were originally named "CC" e.g. DM15CC. The "CC" later was omitted. Therefore the larger size calculators got the appendix "L", like DM15L or DM41L.

Then, while preparing my presentation of the DM42 at the HHC, I proposed to Michael the interpretation of "L" to denote "Landscape" and consequently the DM42 should be DM42P, "P" as in "Portrait". Much to my disappointment, he told me that he had that idea himself already. No million Dollar license fee for me, grmpfh

The concept of the DM42P is possibly a basis for a 43S of any kind, or a 41P one may dream of. But at the time being, SwissMicros is completely used to their capacity with the DM42P.
Hope to see you at the HHC in September.
Günter

[anetzer]

(01-20-2017 09:15 PM)hth Wrote:  one extra column of keys.

Right you are. The rows would all be needed, but that extra column should do the job for a DM41.

I would have preferred a layout that is almost identical to the original, but at least there is a way.

Thanks for pointing the blind to the obvious...