110 Portable Plus software, Teledisk

[Michael Fehlhammer]

At the HP Computer Museum (.net) there are software images in Teledisk format for download.

I was happy to find some software for the 110 Portable Plus there, but unfortunately I cannot convert many of the Teledisk images, for example 110PROGT.TD0 ( HP 110 programmer's tools ), or the macro assembler for the HP 150. I use Teledisk 2.16 (originally the software came on 3.5 inch discs ) on an old PC under Win98SE. I converted some TD0 images without a problem, but with the above mentioned Teledisk immediately stops because it cannot access side 0 track 0 sector 17 (!!). Is there a sector 17 on these 3.5 inch discs ?? Perhaps my (not so old ) PC is too fast? But why does it work perfectly with other FD0 images, like "HP 110 Plotter Support Disc"? I am really confused. Can anyone help? Are there others who encountered problems when trying to convert Teledisk images?

By the way: Can anyone provide 110 (+) software like the programmer's tools in another format?
Thank you in advance!

[Paul Berger (Canada)]

The diskette is likely in 256 byte per sector format 18 sectors per track (0-17). A lot of HP stuff was in that format, I have not had any luck recreating the diskettes on a 1.44MB diskette drive I have only ever had it work on a real 720K drive under DOS. I just tried it and it seemed to complete but I don't have any way to verify as I don't have anything that can read 256 byte per sector dos diskettes.

I now have what is essentially a binary image of the diskette and I can confirm that it is a 256 byte per sector DOS format diskette. I created this image using the TD2HPI utility found on the HPDIR site http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdir/ specificly in the software section http://www.hp9845.net/9845/software/pack...ml#addinfo The tools on this site are really design for manipulating LIF format diskette and disk images especially for the 9845 but I have used them with series 80 machines as well. The hpi format that is used for the hpdrive disk emulator is just a flat binary image so you can probably extract the files from the image without a whole lot of trouble. Send me an email of PM if you need assistance finding your way around the binary image.

[Dave Frederickson]

Hi Michael,

I had no issues creating a diskette from 110PROGT.TD0 onto a DS/DD disk using Teledisk 2.23, a 450 MHz Win98SE machine, and a 1.44MB FD. I used Fdio from the HP9845.net site to verify the disk using the -info option. It reported the format as 9114 with 16 sectors/track.

Dave

[Michael Fehlhammer]

Thank you Paul and Dave for your valuable hints and assistance!
I will try out your suggestions as soon as possible, probably on the weekend, and I will report if I had success.

[Michael Fehlhammer]

I had no luck.
Teledisk refuses to restore the image back onto a DD disk.
It stops immediately, saying: cannot find cyl. 0 side 0 sector 0.

@ Dave: I should go for a slower machine and/ or another disk controller, since you have been successful.

Strange: The FD2IMD conversion utility from Dave Dunfield's image disk pac doesn't work for 110PROGT, it states:

" TD 1.5 3.5 LD MFM S-Step, 1 sides 7/01/2012 20:38:21
110 PROGRAMMERS TOOL KIT
45419-13001
Cannot do mixed sector size within track. "

Does that explain anything?

@ Paul:
Like you I was able to translate the FD0 image to hpi using FD2HPI, but I'm not sure whether the resulting file is of any use. The translation routine warns: No LIF file!, and it describes the image as follows:
number of cylinders: 71
number of heads: 1
number of sectors 17 (!!)
sector size: 256

According to Dave, FDIO -info says: 16 sectors, obviously a contradiction.

As mentioned before, the hpi plugin for total commander cannot open the hpi file, nor can Winimage open the corresponding .ima file ( which is created before the hpi file, as an intermediate step ).
Even if the hpi file is the "correct" flat binary, I can't imagine that it should be an easy task to extract the files from it without special tools, just by means of a hex editor. You have to have an exact knowledge of the directory structure, f.e.. Since I plan to use not only 110PROGT, but several other disks that I can't currently convert as well ( ECMPORT, f.e. ), binary analysis seems to me the (too) hard way.
Since you and Dave were able to restore the Teledisk image to disk, I have to search for hardware that better fits the requirements, I guess.

[Dave Frederickson]

Hi Michael,

Dave Dunfield has a disk controller analyzer. It might be useful to test your controller. Another technique, especially if using a HP-IL PC card, is to disable the processor's cache memory. This makes processors run much slower and can make newer systems compatible with the older HP software.

Dave

[Dave Frederickson]

Hi Michael,

I have some questions about your PC hardware.
1. After disabling the CPU cache, can you format a floppy using LIFUTIL?
2. Read Test. With a floppy formatted on a 9114, can you run fdio -info?
3. Write Test. Can you write a LIF image from the ftp archive using fdio?
4. What are the results of running testfdc?

Dave

[Paul Berger (Canada)]

(03-02-2014 02:07 AM)Michael Fehlhammer Wrote:  I had no luck.
Teledisk refuses to restore the image back onto a DD disk.
It stops immediately, saying: cannot find cyl. 0 side 0 sector 0.

@ Dave: I should go for a slower machine and/ or another disk controller, since you have been successful.

Strange: The FD2IMD conversion utility from Dave Dunfield's image disk pac doesn't work for 110PROGT, it states:

" TD 1.5 3.5 LD MFM S-Step, 1 sides 7/01/2012 20:38:21
110 PROGRAMMERS TOOL KIT
45419-13001
Cannot do mixed sector size within track. "

Does that explain anything?

@ Paul:
Like you I was able to translate the FD0 image to hpi using FD2HPI, but I'm not sure whether the resulting file is of any use. The translation routine warns: No LIF file!, and it describes the image as follows:
number of cylinders: 71
number of heads: 1
number of sectors 17 (!!)
sector size: 256

It reports "No LIF file" because it is not a LIF format image it is and image of a DOS format diskette but the difficulty is the diskette format is 256 bytes per sector not 512 as is the case with a "normal" DOS diskette. I looked at the BIOS parameter block in the diskette image and it confirms that it is indeed 18 sectors per track.

I found a copy of the version of teledisk that Dave recommended and I found that it has "issues" with some hardware including one that an earlier version of teledisk worked on without issue. The only one that I had any success with is an old Panasonic Toughbook CF-45. The result you got may be an issue with the diskette controller on the system, I got a similar result on my Toshiba T6600C and on my generic Pentium based machine, where previous version work, I get DMA overrun errors.

[Michael Fehlhammer]

(03-02-2014 03:57 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  Hi Michael,

I have some questions about your PC hardware.
1. After disabling the CPU cache, can you format a floppy using LIFUTIL?
2. Read Test. With a floppy formatted on a 9114, can you run fdio -info?
3. Write Test. Can you write a LIF image from the ftp archive using fdio?
4. What are the results of running testfdc?

Dave

Hello Dave,

Unfortunately I can't disable the cache (in the BIOS Setup, maybe there are tools to accomplish that, I don't know). The laptop I use is a Pentium 4 2.0 GHz, much too modern probably, but some images could be restored.

1. Although cache was active, formatting a disk using LIFUTIL was successful.
Verified also using an HP 71b / 9114.

2. Also looks good.
FDIO reports: "Medium in drive a: looks like LIF 3.5 DS/DD (616 kBytes)".
Sector size 256, Data rate 250 kBytes/s, Cyl/Heads/Sectors: 77/2/16.

3.
No problem. I wrote lexfl1.lif to a disk, and 9114/HP 71b could read the files.

4.
TESTDFC 1.18, testing 720k DD, reports:
BIOS reports drive A: as 1.44M HD, 80-track.
Single Density at 250 kbps: passed
Double Density at 250 kbps: passed
Double Density at 250 kbps / 128 byte sectors: failed.
(300 and 500 kbps: not tested )

Altogether, from these tests my system seems to be not that bad ...
It would seem that I can't restore those TD0 images that originally were recorded from SINGLE sided disks, by the way.

Thank you again for advice and assistance!
Michael

[Michael Fehlhammer]

(03-02-2014 05:06 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:  It reports "No LIF file" because it is not a LIF format image it is and image of a DOS format diskette but the difficulty is the diskette format is 256 bytes per sector not 512 as is the case with a "normal" DOS diskette. I looked at the BIOS parameter block in the diskette image and it confirms that it is indeed 18 sectors per track.

I found a copy of the version of teledisk that Dave recommended and I found that it has "issues" with some hardware including one that an earlier version of teledisk worked on without issue. The only one that I had any success with is an old Panasonic Toughbook CF-45. The result you got may be an issue with the diskette controller on the system, I got a similar result on my Toshiba T6600C and on my generic Pentium based machine, where previous version work, I get DMA overrun errors.

Thank you, Paul,
looks like as if I will have to find and test several old pcs and disk controllers, as well as I will have to test different versions of teledisk. Oh dear! :-)

[Dave Frederickson]

Hi Michael,

I'm surprised LIFUTIL runs on a P4. Surf over to this site and download cachchk5 and speed600. Cachchk5 contains a utility, cachectl, to enable/disable the L1 cache. Speed600 is an old benchmark that will allow you to quickly see the effect of running cachectl.

If you want to try a different format, which one works for you?

Dave

[Dave Frederickson]

Michael,

My FDC doesn't fair very well in the test. It only passes the double-density tests. It also doesn't seem to handle the single-sided TD0 images.

Dave

[Michael Fehlhammer]

(03-02-2014 08:32 PM)Dave Frederickson Wrote:  Hi Michael,

I'm surprised LIFUTIL runs on a P4. Surf over to this site and download cachchk5 and speed600. Cachchk5 contains a utility, cachectl, to enable/disable the L1 cache. Speed600 is an old benchmark that will allow you to quickly see the effect of running cachectl.

If you want to try a different format, which one works for you?

Dave

I managed to disable the cache(s); speedtest shows a decrease of performance, my laptop is now evaluated as a 2700 Mhz AT, instead of 3500 Mhz. :-)
The operation (non-functioning) of teledisk is not affected, unfortunately.
I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Are you thinking about converting the 110PROGT disk into another format? Can you create IMD (imagedisk), ima (Winimage) and fdio format, for example? Maybe I can write to disk at least one of the three.
If I understood right you managed to create a (110PROGT) disk with teledisk. Direct conversion of the TD0 file probably won't help, but rereading the disk using one of the other disk imaging tools might work.
My testing with fdio looked quite promising, therefore I'd prefer a fdio image for the first attempt.

[Dave Frederickson]

Hi Michael,

This isn't looking promising. 110UTIL is a std 720K DOS format disk and when I restore the image I get a partially good directory listing. I haven't been able to completely verify any of the images.

Dave

[Michael Fehlhammer]

Hello Dave,

success, finally!
I tried another machine, also not really old: a tower pc with 64 bit AMD processor, normally running Windows XP, built 2005. Cache could not be disabled in the BIOS setup.
I booted DOS 5.0 from disk, and teledisk 2.16 ran hassle-free. I was able to reconstruct 110PROGT and COMPBAS (MS BASIC compiler), and my good old 110 plus could read the disks.

So obviouly it was rather a matter of floppy disk controller compatibility than of processor speed.

Thanks a lot for your many tips and hints!
Also many thanks to Paul!

Cheers!
Michael

[Rick314]

I have been trying for days to get the "HP 150 Programmer's Tools" files from the 150TOOLS.TD0 file available from http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=149. I just found this thread and THESE ARE MY PROBLEMS TOO!" I am a novice at disk formats, and have already learned way more than I want to about Teledisk (version 2.16 in my case), and obsolete disk formats. But still no success.

Could one of you possible "give me a fish" instead of "teaching me to fish" and get the 150TOOLS.TD0 files, put them in a .zip file, and email them to me?

Or, perhaps easier, I only really need the MASM, LINK and EXE2BIN programs that are on that disk. (I need to convert an 8088 assembly code file FOO.ASM to FOO.BIN for use with a Turbo Pascal 3.0 .PAS file.) If you can provide those 3 executables (and perhaps those for the HP 110 would be the same) I would be very thankful!

[Paul Berger (Canada)]

(06-26-2015 02:01 AM)Rick314 Wrote:  I have been trying for days to get the "HP 150 Programmer's Tools" files from the 150TOOLS.TD0 file available from http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=149. I just found this thread and THESE ARE MY PROBLEMS TOO!" I am a novice at disk formats, and have already learned way more than I want to about Teledisk (version 2.16 in my case), and obsolete disk formats. But still no success.

Could one of you possible "give me a fish" instead of "teaching me to fish" and get the 150TOOLS.TD0 files, put them in a .zip file, and email them to me?

Or, perhaps easier, I only really need the MASM, LINK and EXE2BIN programs that are on that disk. (I need to convert an 8088 assembly code file FOO.ASM to FOO.BIN for use with a Turbo Pascal 3.0 .PAS file.) If you can provide those 3 executables (and perhaps those for the HP 110 would be the same) I would be very thankful!

People who play with old computers really need old tools too. My trusty old Panasonic CF-45 laptop had no trouble creating the diskette with the Teledisk 2.33 and I even found a copy of the Sydex driver to read 150 diskettes and that works like a charm on the CF-45 as well so I have a zip file for you, PM me with where you would like it sent.

Paul.

[Dave Frederickson]

(06-26-2015 05:43 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:  People who play with old computers really need old tools too.

I agree 100%. The essential thing about creating discs from the TD0 images is the Floppy Disc Controller. In order to recreate these non-DOS formats the software requires low-level access to the FDC, so right off the bat, USB floppy disc drives will NOT work. Refer to the registry for a list of FDC's and their capabilities. An FDC that passes the single-density tests is usually necessary, like the Adaptec 1522A. You can test your FDC using TestFDC. Then just follow the instructions at the HP Computer Museum.

My machine is a 450MHz PII which allows me to run Win98SE or DOS. The computer has legacy interfaces so my EPROM programmer has access to a parallel port, but it also has USB. I can also disable the L2 cache and run LIFUTIL, which normally requires a slow machine due to the timing limitations of the software. The MB, CPU, and FDC were all found cheap on eBay.

Dave

[Rick314]

(06-26-2015 05:43 PM)Paul Berger (Canada) Wrote:  ... so I have a zip file for you, PM me with where you would like it sent.

Thank you Paul, and you have a PM with my email address. I will forward the .zip file to the curator of the HP Computer Museum with a link back to this thread for history, suggesting that he post it on his site. Hopefully that might help others in the future.

[Dave Frederickson]

I think I've finally figured out why this is an issue. The HP150 originally ran DOS 2.11 and had 270K, single-sided, floppy drives. This is the format of the TD0 image on the Computer Museum's site. Later 150's ran DOS 3.2 and had standard 720K, IBM PC drives. This would explain why the 270K images can't be read and why the zipped files can easily be transferred to the HP150.