Multiplication Poll: * or · or something else?

[Tim Wessman]

How about a poll: Would you prefer to see ·,* or something else for multiplication in 2D display mode? What about the program editor, notes/text, or non-2D mode?

Vote 2 times only, one in the 2D display (first 3 options), and one in the non-2d or text/note type display (last 3 options)

[Han]

(03-07-2014 06:53 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  How about a poll: Would you prefer to see ·,* or something else for multiplication in 2D display mode? What about the program editor, notes/text, or non-2D mode?

Vote 2 times only, one in the 2D display (first 3 options), and one in the non-2d or text/note type display (last 3 options)

For 2D display, I prefer the · for multiplication. There is really no reason this couldn't be the case for all other input modes, either.

For notes and text, · is also preferred. However, I presume that such a character is merely the display of the actual ascii character *. Otherwise, there will be issues with backward compatibility with existing programs/notes, etc.

[Helge Gabert]

Why not have the user choose in home and CAS settings (like ./, for fraction mark).

[eried]

(03-08-2014 02:10 AM)Helge Gabert Wrote:  Why not have the user choose in home and CAS settings (like ./, for fraction mark).

But having more options can crowd the settings, maybe something like humm a list, kinda a -flags- list or something like that comes to mind.

BTW I think middle dot looks better (and I don't think any student uses * in their textbooks) but it might be counter intuitive in text mode.

[Cristian Arezzini]

I wanted to vote for the dot on both modes, but I misread the directions ("vote 2 times only, one for each mode") thinking I had to send two separate votes. So I voted for dot on 2D, then tried to vote again for dot on notes, but now I can't vote again. For the record, I would have voted for dot on text/notes too.

PS - the fact that on the poll results, the options you picked are marked with a "*" could add some confusion...

Cristian

[veeblefester]

Think about it.

Helge Gabert has the most logical and versatile solution.

Why would HP not choose the most logical and versatile solution?

[Tim Wessman]

(03-08-2014 03:50 PM)veeblefester Wrote:  Think about it.

Helge Gabert has the most logical and versatile solution.

Why would HP not choose the most logical and versatile solution?

Added complexity, increased translation cost, increased implementation time, increased testing time, and the list goes on.

"Simply adding another setting" is never just "simple" nor in many cases the correct decision. Pretty soon you will have hundreds of flags, which nobody fully understands, which ...

[Thomas Ritschel]

(03-08-2014 04:32 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  Added complexity, increased translation cost, increased implementation time, increased testing time, and the list goes on.

"Simply adding another setting" is never just "simple" nor in many cases the correct decision. Pretty soon you will have hundreds of flags, which nobody fully understands, which ...

Well, then I'm asking myself why there are just three entry modes: Textbook, Algebraic, RPN (not to mention the separate CAS mode).
Why not having just one mode (RPN, of course!) which works as expected?

[eried]

(03-08-2014 04:32 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 03:50 PM)veeblefester Wrote:  Think about it.

Helge Gabert has the most logical and versatile solution.

Why would HP not choose the most logical and versatile solution?

Added complexity, increased translation cost, increased implementation time, increased testing time, and the list goes on.

"Simply adding another setting" is never just "simple" nor in many cases the correct decision. Pretty soon you will have hundreds of flags, which nobody fully understands, which ...

Not exactly true, what about "about:config" (in FF) or "chrome://flags" (in Chrome). Only the access screen needs the translation (warning, don't touch the flags if you...) the settings inside just expose internal registers, even without descriptions or hints. I am not saying it is not extra work, of course it is, but it isn't a constant/endless extra work like adding the options to the user-accessible forms. And BTW I am sure if you expose the language files people will do the translations for free (I can help fixing the spanish one), no need to pay for these .

[eried]

(03-08-2014 05:33 PM)Thomas Ritschel Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 04:32 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  Added complexity, increased translation cost, increased implementation time, increased testing time, and the list goes on.

"Simply adding another setting" is never just "simple" nor in many cases the correct decision. Pretty soon you will have hundreds of flags, which nobody fully understands, which ...

Well, then I'm asking myself why there are just three entry modes: Textbook, Algebraic, RPN (not to mention the separate CAS mode).
Why not having just one mode (RPN, of course!) which works as expected?

I think TW is talking about non-critical settings. Entry mode (also number format, angle format, etc) is probably a bit more important than this visual thing (without RPN in the options maybe this forum wouldn't exist? and we were still playing with our HP50gs)

[Thomas Ritschel]

(03-08-2014 05:51 PM)eried Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 05:33 PM)Thomas Ritschel Wrote:  Well, then I'm asking myself why there are just three entry modes: Textbook, Algebraic, RPN (not to mention the separate CAS mode).
Why not having just one mode (RPN, of course!) which works as expected?

I think TW is talking about non-critical settings. Entry mode (also number format, angle format, etc) is probably a bit more important than this visual thing (without RPN in the options maybe this forum wouldn't exist? and we were still playing with our HP50gs)

I think even those "simpler" settings can be quite critical:
Consider the setting for the decimal mark. If it's set to a comma ( , ) which would be the default when the language is set to "German", this somehow also affects some other delimiters, e.g. the semicolon ( ; ). This causes that many commands (especially in programs) will not work properly anymore (already discussed here in some other threads).

What I mean is: Why not stick to a minimum set of options?
If localization causes so many problems, then drop it.
And remember all those inconsistencies in the user manual resulting from too many mode options.

Just my thoughts...

[eried]

Marketing isn't driven by what makes sense. I remember lots of friends in the university (2012 census said 9.5% of population understand english here) enjoying the fact that TI had multiple languages (imagine the CAS commands changing with the UI interface, and YET! they loved it) W-T-F!

In any case I still think having the option is better than not having it (opposite to iOS-like things)

[Thomas Ritschel]

(03-08-2014 06:34 PM)eried Wrote:  In any case I still think having the option is better than not having it (opposite to iOS-like things)

I fully agree with you: having the option is better than not having it! But it should work properly and consistently in each mode. Otherwise the option is quite useless and annoying...

[Stefan]

(03-08-2014 06:44 PM)Thomas Ritschel Wrote:  

(03-08-2014 06:34 PM)eried Wrote:  In any case I still think having the option is better than not having it (opposite to iOS-like things)

I fully agree with you: having the option is better than not having it! But it should work properly and consistently in each mode. Otherwise the option is quite useless and annoying...

Yes, having an option is always nice. But I must say having the option of switching the multiplication point is way at the bottom of my list which bugs/annoyances should be fixed:

Very far at the top:
Undo/redo function;
(Easy!)possibility to select parts of an expression and apply "something" to it (e.g. You wrote a huge fraction and want to apply a square root to it.);
Also: The reverse way, you have a huge expression inside of "something" and you want to get it out;
Getting rid of HOME vs CAS confusion (Or maybe easier: getting rid of HOME. Or maybe the easiest: Collecting all Primes, melting them down, start from scratch, make it better :-D )
Upper middle:
proper multiplication dot and other quick to implement deuglyfications.
Documents and something filesystemlike to organize calculations.
Lower Middle:
(In general: make it not look like Windows 3.11, make it look/behave like something that was developed in this millenium) :-)
Veeeery far down:
Having options for "whatever", given that the majority can live with "how it is".

[veeblefester]

It sounds like HP is going to go the way of the Prime keyboard color scheme.

"Color Blindness and HP Prime keys color choice"
Just look at the number of views on this one. Wow!

HP chose to ignore the beta users advice and their own prototype with regard to the color scheme.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Why ask us the question if you are not going to do it right?

[Tim Wessman]

(03-08-2014 10:06 PM)veeblefester Wrote:  Why ask us the question if you are not going to do it right?

There is an interesting phenomenon in that many people interpret "right" to mean "what I think it should be" and anything else equates with "wrong".

I was explaining the reasoning and concerns between exposing every tiny little option for customization. It *does* create huge problems for a large number of potential users and also takes time - usually much more time then most people would thing- in order to do each "little thing". The 50g, while it may be ideal for the type of user that hangs out on a calculator forum *for fun*, has been generally criticized for being just to darn complicated for the majority of potential customers to use. How many posts on the 50g start with "well you just have set flags X,Y,Z, delete variable ABC and then press [long sequence].

Anyone who is even being remotely honest will admit that the 50g is not easy to learn for the majority of potential users, and things can go wrong frequently that even advanced users take time to understand and resolve.


I suspect that there are many people that have not thought through all the potential impacts of changing something like this. It is simply a change of character so the asterisk renders like a dot? Does the character change to a different character? Do you have two multiplication commands that display differently? Is it exclusively in 2d display or also elsewhere? Does it impact testing or documentation? How about places like france that will sometimes use a period to indicate multiplication? etc.

Asking the question can prove helpful. It helps so one can see and possibly glimpse what this specific cross section of individuals might think. That, when combined with other investigation, can prove helpful in determining what to work on, priority in which to do it, and possible changes that might be desired.

Asking the question does not signify that any change will happen, that a change has already happened, or that a change will never happen. It is simply a way to try to understand.

[eried]

(03-08-2014 11:33 PM)Tim Wessman Wrote:  How many posts on the 50g start with "well you just have set flags X,Y,Z, delete variable ABC and then press [long sequence].

That's true and I have some proofs (click "« Comentarios antiguos" to browse older comments), the vast majority of these 3000+ problems/comments from people (plus some weekly emails) are solved by leaving the calculator without batteries or ON+A+F,F to reset the device.

These 2 answers are pre catched in my brain -BUT- there is a big difference, in the HP50g 'OS' there are no privileges or restrictions, and that's not a gimmicky, think about websites changing your browser flags. The normal user never looks into the flags, but he wants to use some scripts/libs that modify the environment.

[Helge Gabert]

OK, if it is too much of a nuisance to offer the user a choice, then I recommend leaving everything as is, i.e. '*' as the multiplication symbol.

The raised center dot would only cause havoc to my brain/eyes, compared to the fraction symbol '.', as it would look very similar, just a little bit raised. Hard to see the difference, especially if your eyes are getting old!

[jebem]

(03-09-2014 01:35 AM)Helge Gabert Wrote:  OK, if it is too much of a nuisance to offer the user a choice, then I recommend leaving everything as is, i.e. '*' as the multiplication symbol.

The raised center dot would only cause havoc to my brain/eyes, compared to the fraction symbol '.', as it would look very similar, just a little bit raised. Hard to see the difference, especially if your eyes are getting old!

Good point. Leave it as it is now, and please continue with the more important "issues" fixing to be released in the next firmware update
Thanks!

[Angus]

Well, the multiplication dot could be slightly bigger i.e. bold typed for easier identification. Just to bring up an other idea about that.
Personally I prefer '*' for convolution only.

But, I totally agree in that there are more important or nice issues to work on. :-)