What would you like to see in a future HP Prime II? (HP Prime², HP Prime 2X)

[Anders]

Yes and for this reason (as I wrote further above) we need Exam mode that disables all programs and CAS etc., like Prime Exam mode does today. No different.

This is the only way to simultaneously manage and meet two objectives of being compliant for the student market and competitively useful for the professionals.

Also, programming is not allowed on a exam regardless of what programming language so there is no difference between RPL, newRPL, PPL, C++, Java, Pascal, C, Forth, BASIC, List, Prolog or what ever other language you choose from that perspective.

The difference is that Python is a much more accessible language for students to approach learn (first language taught in many schools systems today - high schools), with higher productivity + the benefit for professionals and students to have access to a massive community and ever expanding developed s/w. All this being useful when not doing exams for students and in real life work situations for the professionals.
In addition, students at high schools (at least) have access to laptop PCs, being further accelerated during the pandemic, increasing the likelihood that all students also have a laptop PC within the next few years - the case in the all school districts where I live.
this makes it also increasingly likely that students would use laptop PC to program and transfer to Prime - regardless of what language is used.

[John Keith]

I agree in general that Python is not the ideal language for a hand-held calculator but it has become close to a de facto standard for educational and scientific programming. Since several other calculators support Python I would prefer to see Python replace PPL, which is not ideal for hand held use either IMHO.

Aside from being obscure and unreadable, APL is not a modern language and lacks many features programmers have come to expect. It was designed originally for array processing and not as a general-purpose programming language.

If I had to pick a modern programming language for a hand held calculator I would choose Haskell. It is a concise and powerful language without the mystic runes and bass-ackward syntax of APL. Haskell is also the basis of the GoferLists library for the HP 50g, which extends the "automatic list processing" features introduced on the HP-48.

Replacing the Prime's vestigial RPN mode with either true HP 50 emulation or New RPL would probably be the best solution overall.

[mfleming]

(07-11-2020 06:11 PM)John Keith Wrote:  Aside from being obscure and unreadable, APL is not a modern language and lacks many features programmers have come to expect. It was designed originally for array processing and not as a general-purpose programming language.

It was designed initially as a program specification notation. Modern APL (from Dyalog Ltd for instance) incorporates most every feature one might want in a complete programming system.

(07-11-2020 06:11 PM)John Keith Wrote:  If I had to pick a modern programming language for a hand held calculator I would choose Haskell. It is a concise and powerful language without the mystic runes and bass-ackward syntax of APL.

Love it! Can't argue with the general public image of APL (held especially by programmers ).

Iverson and others had a great deal of success teaching high school and college mathematics using APL. If you're talking about calculators as tools for learning mathematical concepts, APL would certainly be more suited to the HID limitations of a handheld device than conventional programming languages. If you're talking about writing large, complex applications, buy a computer.

Edit: I think most of the disputation in this thread boils down to viewing a calculator as a tool of thought vs. as a tool of computation. Calculators as computation devices had their day when computers were expensive and non-portable. The reason calculators survive today, mostly in the education market, is because they are still suited to the role of a tool of thought.

[Anders]

I think you are right in our different perspectives is because some view a next gen calculator as tool for calculation and some want a tool of thought - truly amplifying your solution solving capabilities at conceptual level.

I'm looking for a productive "solution solving machine" in a handheld format which is basically a tool of thought. The idea of reinventing yet another tool for calculations in 2020 is pretty meaningless in my view. HP Prime, HP42S, HP48xx, HP50g or some of Swiss micros flavor will do just nicely.
I do not think a Prime II should have to goal of perfecting a HP50g or similar in a new case with a modern CPU and more memory, perfecting number of key strokes it takes to perform a function, moving a few buttons around on the key board to perfect the layout or add more highly specialized functions to libraries.

As I wrote above in the thread, a rich CAS machine that can mix variables (unknowns), variables (known) and numbers is where it needs to go (all CAS stuff disabled in Exam mode). Take Giac, roll in new releases and aim towards Wolfram alpha.

My other refence is relevant modern languages with active development like Pyhon and R.

To make the "Prime II" tool of thought truly usable in education at high schools but also at engineering universities and professionally, it has to be extendible with math and science libraries, with largest broadest spread that has the biggest market size (all students + all professionals), flourishing development and a future. Python is where the puck is going (or already is). We should also allow to leverage (which Python can do) the libraries written in R - that would open up an entire new world for a handheld device.

The point is that a handheld platform that can leverage all the massive development that takes place to day in Python and R etc. would be truly next gen. This would truly amplify a users solution solving capability also at the high end!

Obviously programming is done an a PC/mac and transferred to the handheld device. (all programs are disabled in Exam mode).

I want the best of both worlds maximum capability in a handheld format.

[John Keith]

(07-11-2020 06:11 PM)John Keith Wrote:  Replacing the Prime's vestigial RPN mode with either true HP 50 emulation or New RPL would probably be the best solution overall.

Regarding which,

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-14...#pid134258

[John Keith]

(07-12-2020 05:57 PM)Anders Wrote:  Obviously programming is done an a PC/mac and transferred to the handheld device...

This is one point I disagree with. Having to do programming on a PC defeats the point of a programmable calculator. Certainly writing large complex programs is best done on a PC but to me programming is an important part of interactive problem solving.

If I had to choose only one language I would choose Python because of its wide appeal and large base of users and freely available code. However, I still think of RPL as unbeatable for quick'n'dirty problem solving and I can't see a reason not to have both.

[CyberAngel]

(07-12-2020 07:23 PM)John Keith Wrote:  

(07-12-2020 05:57 PM)Anders Wrote:  Obviously programming is done an a PC/mac and transferred to the handheld device...

This is one point I disagree with. Having to do programming on a PC defeats the point of a programmable calculator. Certainly writing large complex programs is best done on a PC but to me programming is an important part of interactive problem solving.

If I had to choose only one language I would choose Python because of its wide appeal and large base of users and freely available code. However, I still think of RPL as unbeatable for quick'n'dirty problem solving and I can't see a reason not to have both.

I'm with John Keith here.
HP Prime² should move it's language towards full Python syntax support.
Though it can easily retain current syntax. I'm pretty sure Parisse agrees.
The RPL (old or new) could start as an app and evolve through Public Betas.
- -
Veli

[Anders]

(07-12-2020 07:23 PM)John Keith Wrote:  

(07-12-2020 05:57 PM)Anders Wrote:  Obviously programming is done an a PC/mac and transferred to the handheld device...

This is one point I disagree with. Having to do programming on a PC defeats the point of a programmable calculator. Certainly writing large complex programs is best done on a PC but to me programming is an important part of interactive problem solving.

If I had to choose only one language I would choose Python because of its wide appeal and large base of users and freely available code. However, I still think of RPL as unbeatable for quick'n'dirty problem solving and I can't see a reason not to have both.

I am not saying programming has to exclusively be done on a PC. I am, saying that any complex code would be better done on a PC. So of course you would still be able to code on the Prime II. However, the limited keyboard and small screen, that any hand held format inevitable will have, shall not be the principle that force or even influence what language to select.

if you start with the handheld device you end up with a less powerful language (a compromise) but if you start with a PC you do not have to compromise one bit.

I understand that I am being sacrilegious to many here when I write this, but
RPL and other other stack based languages is not the future of programming it belong to the past - a very interesting past and that has it charm from many perspectives and so on - but nonetheless the past. We should leave it there on our old loved calculators and not continue to introduce it on a next gen machine.

Just for reference, I wrote an full screen editor in Forth in 1984 (I swear, I do not want inflict that pain on anyone ever!), massive volumes of programs on HP-42S 28S 48S etc. over the years. It is not a good programming model for any complexity beyond trivial and shall not be used in a future machine point, period. It is a second generation language model form the past that current generation students do not care much about - except a perhaps a Computer Science major.

Yes, quick and dirty programming would be the only potential reason for RPL, but you might as well use Python for that too (yes it might take a bit longer to code, but a good contextual and lexical sensitive editor could fix much of that). That way, next gen students can actually read and understand our code - even quick and dirty one.

An owner of: HP-12c, HP-15c, HP-16c, 3 HP-28S, 2 HP-42S, 3 various HP-48xx, 1 HP-50g, 1 HP-35S, HP-32S, 3 HP Primes all flavors, all the Swiss micros flavors of the same DM-xx. Let see Casio FX-602p, FX-603p and a few more I do not even remember off the top of my head...

[lmmt61]

I would like to see a full HP 50G as an icon, meaning there is an emulator within the HP Prime. Whenever you press the icon, the machine becomes the now defunct model. Is that possible?

[toml_12953]

(07-16-2020 08:06 AM)lmmt61 Wrote:  I would like to see a full HP 50G as an icon, meaning there is an emulator within the HP Prime. Whenever you press the icon, the machine becomes the now defunct model. Is that possible?

Speed wouldn't be an issue. The Prime is plenty fast for such a thing. ROM space might be, though. I suppose they could add it as an app. There's a lot or RAM space available.

[Jake Schwartz]

(07-16-2020 08:06 AM)lmmt61 Wrote:  I would like to see a full HP 50G as an icon, meaning there is an emulator within the HP Prime. Whenever you press the icon, the machine becomes the now defunct model. Is that possible?

Kinda reminds me of the HP OmniGo 100 PDA, which had the HP-12C app embedded, providing a full 12C emulation on the touch screen. A 50G app for the Prime would be superb. Perhaps the now-developing NewRPL for the Prime would be the next best thing.

Jake

[John Keith]

(07-16-2020 04:56 PM)Jake Schwartz Wrote:  Perhaps the now-developing NewRPL for the Prime would be the next best thing.

Jake

Actually it may be a better thing- NewRPL is native code and much faster than the Saturn emulator the HP 50g runs on. It should really fly on the Prime which has a higher clock speed and uses a newer ARM version.

[Dands]

Bump. Maybe we'll see a new Prime in 2021?

[BINUBALL]

(04-28-2021 03:45 AM)Dands Wrote:  Bump. Maybe we'll see a new Prime in 2021?

As joke, I think we may see a new Prime in 2023.
Because HP Prime G1(2013) → HP Prime G2(2018) → HP Prime G3?(2023)

[jonmoore]

I love my 50g so much so that I have 3 of them. One as my primary 50g, the second to run newRPL and the third, still in its packaging as a backup should either of the other two fail.

But I don't think RPL or newRPL should be the beating heart of a next-gen Prime. I'd love the ability to load newRPL onto a next-gen Prime or a clone of the 50g for that matter using a similar process to 'ndless' for the Nspire (and as mentioned elsewhere, I'd love to have the native XCAS version Bernard has created for a wide variety of calculator platforms too - KhiCAS). However, the base operating system needs to be something that educators want, and this is increasingly a hybrid, desktop/calculator system. This is where Casio and TI are having great success.

The Prime as it stands is neither loved by RPN/RPL traditionists nor has it received a glowing reception from the education establishment.

I do believe it's possible for a next-gen Prime to answer the needs of both of the aforementioned groups, and in so doing, the students using a next-gen Prime will be the ultimate beneficiaries.

[obelix]

Perhaps the best option would be:

a) Open source the firmware
b) Create a new calculator, just cosmetically different from the HP Prime, without exam mode and without limitations to install custom firmware, just like the old 50g.

From this point the community could do anything. Perhaps integrate xcas in NewRPL just like Erable was integrated in old RPL?

[Eddie W. Shore]

I wouldn't mind a return to the dark brown keyboard with blue and orange fonts for the keys (reference HP 48SX or early-run 20S). If RPL is to make a return, it should also be allowed as a program mode (i.e. #rpl, #endrpl).

[toml_12953]

I know I'm alone in this but I'd like to see a machine with either: CAS fully integrated or no CAS at all. I'd like no dedicated variables. My main use for any machine is to be able to program it and having to know which variables are used by CAS and which are used in Home isn't helpful. So I'd like NO predefined variables. Let the user define the ones (s)he wants. I'd also like a full version of either C, Pascal, Python, JavaScript or other standard language similar to those. Maybe the languages could be on a pluggable ROM to allow each user to choose the language appropriate for each task. Stripped down languages that are hardware-specific aren't the way to go. I'd also like to be able to use USB peripherals such as a keyboard, mouse, printer, game controller, SSD, etc. Having HDMI or at least VGA video output would be good. When I'm traveling I could use it as a handheld but when I was home, I could connect a keyboard, mouse, and video display and use it as a full computer. I'd like the ports to be right on the machine and not have to use a dock.

Oh, one other thing - It should use a monospaced font in the Terminal! It makes programming neat-looking output so much easier.

[OlidaBel]

Concerning the hardware :
1- the next gen Prime should/must have a clear and readable keyboard, with high contrast colour scheme.
The current one is a pain to use, a pain to read.
Follow the example of the HP 32SII.

2- a better screen angle of vision

[jonmoore]

(05-03-2021 06:39 AM)OlidaBel Wrote:  Concerning the hardware :
1- the next gen Prime should/must have a clear and readable keyboard, with high contrast colour scheme.
The current one is a pain to use, a pain to read.
Follow the example of the HP 32SII.

2- a better screen angle of vision

Agree fully with most of this but I'm probably swayed by my years of 50g use, and would say this is my favourite HP calculator hardware UI from the modern era that integrates CAS capabilities. I own a 32SII too and think the interaction design is spot on but it features a far more simplistic feature-set and on that basis benefits from a far more direct interaction model with minimal menu diving (for all the 35s's faults, its update to the 32SII hardware UI is reasonably successful).

The Prime is one of my least favourite hardware designs from a UX perspective. The combination of the mirrored backplate surface with alpha characters that disappear at certain viewing angles due to backplate reflections and an inappropriate slanted key design, that means the LCD legibility is badly obscured due to it's poor viewing angle performance (to view the alpha characters well, you often need to be looking at the slanted surface face on). The particular shade of orange used for the alpha characters doesn't help matters either.

The HP Prime may look pretty in photographs, but its real-world hardware interaction performance has too many shortfalls.

On the plus side, the keyboard action is one HP's better efforts in the modern era (although not quite as good as the 50g's, which is probably as good as it is, to make up for the travesty of the 49g+ another metal effect monster!).