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ctrclckws · 10-09-2020, 09:59 PM

(10-09-2020 07:00 PM)Harald Wrote: Is the hardware identical for the 42 and 41? I.e. can I flash a 41 to become a 42 and vice versa?
I considered my collection complete and didn't want to buy any more calculators. But I am very tempted now...

You can, but the keyboard labels, and the overlay is different

**rprosperi** · 10-09-2020, 10:35 PM

(10-09-2020 07:00 PM)Harald Wrote: Is the hardware identical for the 42 and 41? I.e. can I flash a 41 to become a 42 and vice versa?
I considered my collection complete and didn't want to buy any more calculators. But I am very tempted now...

It will work, but it will be very hard to use as the keyboards are very dissimilar (the keys, the legends above the keys and Alpha are all different).

C'mon, jump over that theoretical line... the water's fine... Wink

bernouilli92 · (This post was last modified: 10-10-2020 01:52 PM by bernouilli92.)

(10-09-2020 07:00 PM)Harald Wrote: Is the hardware identical for the 42 and 41? I.e. can I flash a 41 to become a 42 and vice versa?
I considered my collection complete and didn't want to buy any more calculators. But I am very tempted now...

Yes, you can do that. That’s what I did to test the dm41x on the dm42 before I received my real dm41x.
You have to put the dm41x firmware and the right KEYMAP.BIN on the FAT usb drive, then you eject the usb drive.
And you can print a dm41x overlay, from this picture :
https://global-uploads.webflow.com/5e3bc...-p-500.png
You have to cut the keys left/up/right. You can cut out the keys that are common, ie ENTER and 0 to 9.

The keymap can be downloaded from here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qbvhwkzk41i88y...x.zip?dl=0

You can use the keymap.bin form the dm42 directory to revert to dm42.

And finally, the dm41x firmware is here :
https://technical.swissmicros.com/dm41x/firmware/

You also have to put the files from the DM41X.zip that is here :
https://technical.swissmicros.com/dm41x/fat/

Craig Bladow · (This post was last modified: 10-14-2020 12:43 PM by Craig Bladow.)

(10-07-2020 10:53 PM)rprosperi Wrote: The front half of the DM41x (and DM42) is really all one plastic piece, there is no separate keyboard assembly, plus the domes are on the board, so it's not a simple parts swap no matter what. Michael is aware of customer interest and is exploring possibilities that are easily installed (without technician-level skills), reliable and economical, and will announce something when it's ready.

There is no need to lobby, individually or en masse; if/when a general solution is available, it will be announced on the SM Forum, so please give it a little time.

Thanks Bob, just the information I needed. The key response on my Beta DM-41X is perfectly usable for me, however the DM-42 keys are uncomfortably firm for any extended use.

A fun feature for the keyboard upgrade, if it happens, would be to place a small "F" or "FC" somewhere on the new part to designate it as a "Frankencalc". Smile

grsbanks · 10-14-2020, 12:50 PM

(10-07-2020 10:53 PM)rprosperi Wrote: There is no need to lobby, individually or en masse; if/when a general solution is available, it will be announced on the SM Forum, so please give it a little time.

For what it's worth, I've asked Michael for some parts that I'm going to be testing to see if a theory of mine holds water. As Bob says, once a solution has been put together it'll be announced on the SwissMicros forum.

Dave Britten · 10-14-2020, 04:29 PM

(10-14-2020 12:50 PM)grsbanks Wrote:
(10-07-2020 10:53 PM)rprosperi Wrote: There is no need to lobby, individually or en masse; if/when a general solution is available, it will be announced on the SM Forum, so please give it a little time.

For what it's worth, I've asked Michael for some parts that I'm going to be testing to see if a theory of mine holds water. As Bob says, once a solution has been put together it'll be announced on the SwissMicros forum.

If the kit ends taking the form of a new front half and PCB, with the recipient transplanting their old back half, battery, and LCD, I'd probably be interested.

toml_12953 · 10-14-2020, 04:41 PM

(10-14-2020 04:29 PM)Dave Britten Wrote:
(10-14-2020 12:50 PM)grsbanks Wrote: For what it's worth, I've asked Michael for some parts that I'm going to be testing to see if a theory of mine holds water. As Bob says, once a solution has been put together it'll be announced on the SwissMicros forum.

If the kit ends taking the form of a new front half and PCB, with the recipient transplanting their old back half, battery, and LCD, I'd probably be interested.

I don't think you'll need a PCB. The only difference is the legends on the keys and those can be replaced with just the top half of the case although you'll have to be able to remove the LCD from the old case.

Sylvain Cote · (This post was last modified: 10-14-2020 08:38 PM by Sylvain Cote.)

(10-14-2020 04:41 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(10-14-2020 04:29 PM)Dave Britten Wrote: If the kit ends taking the form of a new front half and PCB, with the recipient transplanting their old back half, battery, and LCD, I'd probably be interested.
I don't think you'll need a PCB. The only difference is the legends on the keys and those can be replaced with just the top half of the case although you'll have to be able to remove the LCD from the old case.

My understanding is that the domes on the PCB also need to be replaced, this is where it become tricky and probably why SM is trying to figure out what to do about this.

grsbanks · 10-14-2020, 08:59 PM

(10-14-2020 08:38 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: My understanding is that the domes on the PCB also need to be replaced, this is where it become tricky and probably why SM is trying to figure out what to do about this.

That the domes would need to be replaced was never in doubt. What is in doubt is whether that's all that needs replacing and whether the front case with the keyboard and it's slightly different keys would also need to be replaced. To figure this out I put a production unit's PCB first into a DM41X Beta unit and then into an older DM42. The improvement is already significant without replacing the keyboard, which is just as well because replacing the keyboard also means transplanting the LCD and glass screen. To get those out you need to twist them to get them unstuck and I can just imagine dozens of irate customers e-mailing in saying "you told me to twist the calculator to get the parts out and they broke!"

I would really, really like to avoid that support nightmare if humanly possible.

What I'm waiting on now is a few foils with the new domes so that I can find a foolproof way of getting the alignment spot on when replacing one with the older domes. It's easier said than done with adhesive that strong because you can't keep on peeling it off and trying again, you have to get it right first time.

*IF* that proves easy enough and *IF* the improvement is significant enough then voilà. There's the upgrade kit and instructions. If not then it's back to the drawing board.

Didier Lachieze · 10-14-2020, 09:00 PM

A 3D printed frame, similar to the ones used to position tempered glass protections on smartphone screens, may help to install correctly the sheet with the new domes on the PCB.

Dave Britten · 10-14-2020, 09:22 PM

(10-14-2020 08:59 PM)grsbanks Wrote: That the domes would need to be replaced was never in doubt. What is in doubt is whether that's all that needs replacing and whether the front case with the keyboard and it's slightly different keys would also need to be replaced. To figure this out I put a production unit's PCB first into a DM41X Beta unit and then into an older DM42. The improvement is already significant without replacing the keyboard, which is just as well because replacing the keyboard also means transplanting the LCD and glass screen. To get those out you need to twist them to get them unstuck and I can just imagine dozens of irate customers e-mailing in saying "you told me to twist the calculator to get the parts out and they broke!"

When I replaced the LCD in my 2017 DM42 (damaged ribbon cable), there was no twisting required. If you remove the PCB, you'll see four slots on the left and right sides of the screen. Use the bluntest object that will fit in those slots to gently push the glass outward from the rear. Don't know if the case design has changed to eliminate those slots, as I haven't opened up my 41X yet. The LCD swap was a cinch, in any case.

toml_12953 · 10-15-2020, 09:47 AM

(10-14-2020 08:38 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:
(10-14-2020 04:41 PM)toml_12953 Wrote: I don't think you'll need a PCB. The only difference is the legends on the keys and those can be replaced with just the top half of the case although you'll have to be able to remove the LCD from the old case.
My understanding is that the domes on the PCB also need to be replaced, this is where it become tricky and probably why SM is trying to figure out what to do about this.

I had forgotten about that. That is a sticky wicket, indeed! Smile

Sylvain Cote · 10-15-2020, 10:24 AM

(10-14-2020 08:59 PM)grsbanks Wrote:
(10-14-2020 08:38 PM)Sylvain Cote Wrote: My understanding is that the domes on the PCB also need to be replaced, this is where it become tricky and probably why SM is trying to figure out what to do about this.
That the domes would need to be replaced was never in doubt. What is in doubt is whether that's all that needs replacing and whether the front case with the keyboard and it's slightly different keys would also need to be replaced.

Perspective! I always find it surprising how can two individual can see the same problem but from completely two different angles.
I though that the keyboard would need to be replaced was never in doubt. What is in doubt is whether .... you get the idea. Wink

(10-14-2020 08:59 PM)grsbanks Wrote: To figure this out I put a production unit's PCB first into a DM41X Beta unit and then into an older DM42. The improvement is already significant without replacing the keyboard, which is just as well because replacing the keyboard also means transplanting the LCD and glass screen. To get those out you need to twist them to get them unstuck and I can just imagine dozens of irate customers e-mailing in saying "you told me to twist the calculator to get the parts out and they broke!"

Why not offer 3 replacement parts and a replacement service with different prices and warranties. ?

Dome replacement sheet
DM42 keyboard only (no warranty on screen if broken while replacing)
DM41X keyboard only (no warranty on screen if broken while replacing)
Send unit back to SM for upgrade

Sylvain

PS: I have purposely omitted the option "unit keyboard with screen attached" because of the potential abuse with the option "unit keyboard only"

toml_12953 · 10-15-2020, 01:19 PM

(10-15-2020 10:24 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:

Dome replacement sheet

DM42 keyboard only (no warranty on screen if broken while replacing)

DM41X keyboard only (no warranty on screen if broken while replacing)

Send unit back to SM for upgrade

Buy replacement calculator

Dave Britten · 10-15-2020, 01:48 PM

(10-15-2020 01:19 PM)toml_12953 Wrote:
(10-15-2020 10:24 AM)Sylvain Cote Wrote:

Dome replacement sheet

DM42 keyboard only (no warranty on screen if broken while replacing)

DM41X keyboard only (no warranty on screen if broken while replacing)

Send unit back to SM for upgrade

Buy replacement calculator

Ha, I broke down and went with option 5. Though I'll likely consider upgrading the original one depending on the eventual options.

cdmackay · 10-15-2020, 11:37 PM

for whatever it's worth…

I had a DM42 (s/n 04010), and a DM41X beta (s/n 00004), both with troublesome keys.

Michael kindly sent me two dome sheets (on separate occasions). For each, I removed the old sheet, cleaned the board, and put on the new sheet, on both calcs. No change to buttons, or anything else.

The DM42 was utterly transformed. Loud clacky keys, definite feel, impossible to reproduce the old issue of pressed button without registering.

But on the DM41X it seemed to make no difference whatsoever. Press-but-not-register trivial to reproduce, considerable press-loss in normal use, with my normal pressure.

Could easily be my fault, of course, or might indicates that there's more to it than the domes, as has been said above.

**rprosperi** · 10-16-2020, 03:00 AM

It's possible it was an installation alignment issue, but it's also possible your DM42 and Beta 41X had different generations of keyboard designs, there were several versions, so possibly you did it exactly right but they were not compatible.

All these issues are part of why there is no simple answer, but please hang in there...

bernouilli92 · (This post was last modified: 10-16-2020 09:31 PM by bernouilli92.)

On some dm42, it might be necessary to change the keyboard. On my dm42 that I bought beginning of 2018, the front plate with the key holes is misplaced. When you press some keys (ie keys from 5 upper rows), the upper side of the knock against the plate. I guess that means that you have to press the key harder to get it reach and press the dome.

Monte Dalrymple · 10-19-2020, 04:12 AM

2-key rollover doesn't work properly.

press & hold "3", then press "1", then release "3", then release "1" result: 331

press & hold "3", then press "9", then release "3", then release "9" result :399

on a real 41 (or 41CL) you get 31 in the first case, 39 in the second case.

2-key rollover is hard to get right. It took me a while on the 41CL.

Monte

Ángel Martin · 10-19-2020, 05:54 AM

Some people believe the 2-key rollover is not an important feature and discard glitches in its operation. I completely disagree with that, it's very important to get it right as it gets triggered more often than you'd think in normal operation - you just need to type fast which eventually happens once you get used to the keyboard.