NEW: HP 15C Collectors Edition

[AnnoyedOne]

(08-30-2024 03:18 AM)Peter Ketcham Wrote:  ...all four have damaged bezels of some sort.

Interesting. My 9CJ323 lot HP-15C CE is flawless. Sounds like different assembly/packaging machines might have been used. Or less carefully by some operators.

I don't recall any plastic film on the calculator itself but I could be wrong. The (sealed) box did have some clear film on the window though. It had bubbles in it so I removed that. The box window clear plastic is fine however.

I used a 3rd party source for my purchase. It only cost a little more.

A1

PS: My open-package 9CJ251 lot HP-12C+ is also pristine. It may or may not have come from the same factory in the Philippines.

[BuSchu]

(08-20-2023 05:30 PM)Namir Wrote:  I believe you can download the TWO CE manuals from here!

Thanks for the link!

[sirplatypus]

I have a couple of questions about the new 15c CE. To my understanding, the original voyagers had doubleshot injection molded, individually seated keys. New 12c models do not, but does this 15c? I know that original voyagers had some extra protective layers inside the calculator, is that still the case with new ones? Overall I’m just generally curious about the construction compared to both original voyagers and third gen 12c calculators.

[brouhaha]

(10-11-2024 04:56 PM)sirplatypus Wrote:  the original voyagers had doubleshot injection molded, individually seated keys. New 12c models do not, but does this 15c?

No

Quote: I know that original voyagers had some extra protective layers inside the calculator, is that still the case with new ones? Overall I’m just generally curious about the construction compared to both original voyagers and third gen 12c calculators.

The very early Voyager calculators had special conductive wrapping of the electronics module as ESD protection because CMOS chips are static sensitive. After further characterization, HP determine that the calculator had satisfactory ESD tolerance without the wrappings, so they were eliminated around 1983. The vast majority of Voyager calculators HP has ever sold do not include the ESD wrapping.

[Divasson]

For those who may want to complete their HP15c CE: there is a new pac of accessories for it, with a substantial discount on the sum of the parts, including:

- POGO cable
- Screwless back door, for frequent opening (now that you can backup and restore calculator states!)
- HP16c overlay
- Aviation pac overlay
- Finance pac overlay

For those that were on the fence of buying the HP15c CE: for a limited period we are offering the bundle HP15c CE with updated firmware + cable + HP16c overlay at the same price of the stock unit. The original deadline was Oct. 15 but problems with the website's change of SSL certificate during past week end leads us to extend it to the 18th.

[BitWiz]

I have a 15C Limited Edition (2 battery version). Serial #03026.

This does have the programming pads on the pcb under the battery compartment door.

Is the the same as the 15CE?
Can I upgrade the firmware to add the HP-16C?
What is the difference between the 15LE and the 15CE?

Thank you,

Mike

[cdmackay]

The connector is not compatible between the new CE and the older LE, and using it wrongly can cause damage; see the Warning here:

https://www.thecalculatorstore.com/c/hp1...ming-cable

[rprosperi]

(10-14-2024 06:10 PM)BitWiz Wrote:  I have a 15C Limited Edition (2 battery version). Serial #03026.

This does have the programming pads on the pcb under the battery compartment door.

Is the the same as the 15CE?
Can I upgrade the firmware to add the HP-16C?
What is the difference between the 15LE and the 15CE?

Thank you,

Mike

Adding at bit more, the 2 units are fully NOT compatible in any way, and it is NOT possible to use the 15c CE f/w in an LE unit. And as cdmackay says, don't even try. I'd put that LE back into the pretty box, sell it, and get a CE with the proceeds, it's a far better machine in every way.

[Divasson]

I'd also say that the CE is really interfaceable and we have just seen a minimal part of the possibilities. I think that the VoyagerSave is a tool just to get us started, and that very soon we will have more integrated solutions, similar to or better than what Swiss micros has.

This, from the interfacing point of view; it is up to us now to develop application program sets that can be copied and loaded, very much like a HP41c module. Geoff Quickfall has started with a wonderful Aviation pac, and there is another Finance pac.

You can develop others for your area of expertise - without having to key it in every time you need to enter a long program.

[ctrclckws]

(10-14-2024 11:05 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(10-14-2024 06:10 PM)BitWiz Wrote:  I have a 15C Limited Edition (2 battery version). Serial #03026.

This does have the programming pads on the pcb under the battery compartment door.

Is the the same as the 15CE?
Can I upgrade the firmware to add the HP-16C?
What is the difference between the 15LE and the 15CE?

Thank you,

Mike

Adding at bit more, the 2 units are fully NOT compatible in any way, and it is NOT possible to use the 15c CE f/w in an LE unit. And as cdmackay says, don't even try. I'd put that LE back into the pretty box, sell it, and get a CE with the proceeds, it's a far better machine in every way.

Or you could get a recent 12C and flash it with the 15C CE firmware and use the 16C overlay with it.

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-15-2024 01:03 PM)ctrclckws Wrote:  Or you could get a recent 12C and flash it with the 15C CE firmware...

Or use an emulator on a computer/tablet/phone. Or make your own HP-15C keyboard overlay

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22511.html

if that's your preference.

A1

[ajay_m]

This is a long-ish post but bear with me. Like many of us here, I grew up in the era of the early HP calculators and owned both an HP45 and subsequently an HP25 (which sadly, failed, possibly due to the Woodstock power supply issue).

A few weeks ago I was travelling around Canada and in a pawn shop in Victoria, I found an HP11C for only CAD 69. It was in absolutely mint condition, both the calculator and the case, as if it had just come out of the box. Yet it was nearly 40 years old. Of course I took it home with me, but then I realised, I wanted to use it regularly but it's like taking a lovely vintage car down to the shops - I didn't want to get it scratched up.

Then I saw the HP15C CE and Amazon in the UK had it in stock, so the next day I had one in my hands. But then I hit the 'keybounce' issue (this is a misnomer, I'll come back to it shortly).

Now I found out about the programming cable and the revised firmware, but you can't buy the programming cable on Amazon or indeed directly in the UK, and I couldn't seem to order it from TCS - it kept saying it didn't have any in stock - and in any case the total cost was coming up to £40 including postage.

I was very disappointed. I put everything back in the box and raised an Amazon return request. And submitted a 3 star review. Then I went to bed, as it was getting pretty late.

In the morning I felt a deep sense of sadness. This was silly, but the beautiful build quality and the way the keys felt (the action is actually better than the vintage HP11c) took me right back to when I picked up an HP45 for the first time (I was about 17 I think). Not to mention the manual, which is beautifully printed and really excellent.

I thought about how this unit came about as the result of the hard work of a bunch of very dedicated people. That it represented a tribute to a time when HP engineering represented the very acme of excellence. I thought about Amazon, who may well stop listing the device if they get too many returns.

I cancelled my Amazon return. I went to ebay and found I could order the cable directly for £34 including postage. And I changed my review to four stars, though I do mention the keybounce issue in fairness.

Now all this is a bit crazy. I'm an ageing nostalgic engineer with a deep love of HP's products from all those years ago. I really want this initiative to be wildly successful. Now I get it's impractical to pull all those units back off the shelf and fix the issue. In any case I'm not quite convinced you've nailed it yet. The problem isn't exactly 'keybounce' as we normally define it. Classic keybounce issues cause repeated keystrokes to be registered on the leading edge i.e when the key is pressed down. What happens here is that a keystroke is registered on the leading edge and then spuriously again when the key is released. This is because you need a holdoff period on both the leading and trailing edges, during which any further transitions are ignored for that key.

SO... what I think should happen is... Get the programming cable on Amazon (UK) as well as Europe and ideally the US. £25 is probably reasonable - I think most people will be ok with that. To sweeten the deal, how about £30 for the programming cable + the HP16C overlay which almost everybody would like. I do get there's a bundle deal in the EU for the calculator, but post Brexit (and for the US) there are problems with total delivery cost and VAT and possibly customs duty that are a complete pain - people want stuff on ebay uk/Amazon uk that get delivered cheaply (or with Prime) and without extra hidden costs - and quickly.

Anyway... we'll see how the firmware fix goes, but I'm quietly confident if that introduces missing keystrokes, you dedicated, clever people will fix it properly and I've made the commitment as a customer - as will many others - but Moravia do need to I think reach out and sort this out in terms of making it easy for people to resolve the problem.

[Johnh]

hi @ajay_m

We seem to be about the same vintage. I never had an HP back in the day, but learned to enjoy RPN on a 20 UK pound Sinclair. But through my career, I always had TI or Casio because whatever I could afford always got me more of what I could use, (until they broke).

But I just wanted to say all best wishes for your 15C-CE, and its worth sticking with it. Ive had mine a year. id always wanted one of these and this is a beautiful thing, an elegant weapon from a more civilized age...

It immediately became my daily go-to for engineering, despite the keyboard issues which I learnt to live with. But after the firmware update, Im getting no bounce issues at all, and in any case where Im working thoughtfully, I cant press a key fast enough to miss a stroke despite the 120ms debounce time.

Id also read here before about how the bouncing can occur on the release of keys, and i could replicate that before I updated. But somewhere between the firmware fix and the way I work, its all gone.

Getting the cable is key. I respect that it is a specialist product created and made in low volume for us and our niche product. It is very nicely made but its always going to cost more than even a high-quality generic USB which can be made in very high volume.

Also, need to embrace the way its used, for the firmware update and then to run the VoyagerSave application. There's some quite nerdish software needed on the pc (Samba), and detailed steps to follow, then the use of command prompts etc. It all works fine though and I regard it as all part of the old-school experience! But it's not like just clicking 'Yes' to the latest phone update.

Having got it all working, I'm far more relaxed knowing its reliable, and I wont lose my programs nor mess them up, no matter what.

Other parts of the developing 15C eco-system include several very good 15C emulators for phones and pcs, and interface programs such as by Pierre, for importing, listing, editing and exporting the save files.

[ajay_m]

On my phone I have Thomas Okken's amazing Free 42 and I also purchased his Plus 42 version and these I think are the best emulations to have because it doesn't entirely make sense to me to emulate more restricted displays (like 7 segment) displays on a vastly more powerful device, whereas an actual hardware device like the 15C CE obviously you're replicating the original product design and tradeoffs like battery life, etc.

Oddly enough the keybounce issue seems to have improved significantly since I first got the device, which is probably because the contacts are bedded in a bit, although I'd expect if I left it in a drawer for a few weeks the problem would worsen though I don't know what materials are used in the switches; you'd hope gold-plated contact surfaces, as HP probably would have chosen, but who knows. I was incredibly impressed that the HP11C I purchased, which must have sat largely idle for 40 years, worked perfectly with all buttons immediately, this is an incredible tribute to HP's engineering.

It was fascinating reading through William Kahan's interview, especially the section on his work for HP and the evolution of the 15C - I plan to use the discussion on 'solve' as a example to our engineers/product managers as to how product features don't always come from direct customer demand; as Kahan pointed out, internally HP's engineers started using the prototype calculator to solve their own electrical design problems, proving Kahan's belief that the feature would be valuable.

If anyone from Moravia is lurking here, may I make a customer suggestion. You have that POGO socket. Imagine a low-profile widget that plugged into this with a bluetooth transceiver. You could then have software on a PC to upload and download programs to the calculator. I assume there's power on that connector but I don't know the details. Just a thought, anyway.... I'd pay good money for one of these....

Also wouldn't mind an extra flag that was set for 'precision loss'. I spent an interesting hour or so the other day implementing the Collatz Conjecture, and for the larger Wikipedia test cases, the cycle counts are wrong presumably because the integer values exceed 10 digits during evaluation; it would be very useful to be able to pick this up programmatically rather than return wrong answers. Mr Kahan would approve

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-24-2024 09:03 AM)ajay_m Wrote:  I assume there's power on that connector but I don't know the details.

Yes there is. 3 volts or so in fact.

The custom POGO programming cable isn't cheap so a Bluetooth dongle would cost even more. Not a bad idea though.

A1

PS: With a cable one can already up/download memory with Voyagersave. And list programs.

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22...#pid193243

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-23-2024 11:13 PM)Johnh Wrote:  I respect that it is a specialist product created and made in low volume for us and our niche product.

Correct. A custom design. Presumably a standard mini/micro USB connector was too expensive to include although the PCB allows for one.

I can't find the post but Divasson recently said that there was a 300 minimum order quantity for cables from the manufacturer.

A1

[ajay_m]

One other thing that would be amazing would be to add the code from the HP45/55 that provides timer functions. I'm assuming these days that crystals are standard; back then they cost more than the cheaper ceramic resonators but with a crystal fitted it becomes quite practical to accurately time things. A lot of scientific work involves time - certainly in the lab at university we had to use stopwatches and having this capability in the calculator and integrated with its memories etc. would be amazing.

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-24-2024 06:04 PM)ajay_m Wrote:  ...would be amazing would be to add the code from the HP45/55 that provides timer functions.

I think that I seconded this idea a while back. Not sure that the hardware has a 32kHz crystal though.

https://eb9376.thecommerce.es/en/i/the-i...a-hp15c-ce

A1

[rprosperi]

The DM15L includes an internal RTC, which you can check manually (with your eyes) however it is not available from the ROM (so not in programs, etc.). It's a bit awkward to get to atm, however fairly soon it will be much easier to access...

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-24-2024 07:07 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  ...fairly soon it will be much easier to access...

I don't know how to interpret that. If the new DM15L firmware has a clock function that may "seal the deal" for me.

The ATSAM4LC2CA SoC in the HP-15C CE and HP-12C+ contain a RTC. Not much use without a 32kHz crystal though. Or firmware access.

The "rogue" HP-12C contains a RTC and crystal but if there's a way to access it that hasn't yet been discovered.

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22...#pid192832

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22...#pid192959

A1