NEW: HP 15C Collectors Edition

[rprosperi]

The existing DM15L always has had a clock built in, but it's a bit awkward to access and although viewable on the LCD, it is not 'visible' to the calculator features, as the 15C never had such capability. What will be much easier to access, is the means for invoking the clock (date and time) display.

As for getting one, c'mon.... you know you want one (this said, in the odd case that the small guy on the shoulder is confused).

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-24-2024 11:07 PM)rprosperi Wrote:  As for getting one, c'mon.... you know you want one...

Yes the SwissMicros DM15L has my attention and has for quite a while. That little guy on my shoulder does tell me that "You want one". But I want to see the new firmware, reviews, etc before giving them money. It's not a small purchase for me and I already have two HP-15C's.

I want to see a (new?) manual, screenshots, etc. Marketing hype doesn't work on me. At least not well.

To paraphrase a famous saying from a movie "Show me the calculator!" If it's worth it I'll hand over the money.

A1

[vaklaff]

(10-25-2024 06:57 AM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  But I want to see the new firmware, reviews, etc before giving them money. It's not a small purchase for me and I already have two HP-15C's.

I want to see a (new?) manual, screenshots, etc.

Not sure if you are aware of https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-20046.html? My point is if you have several fifteens already then you surely don't need an SM-15L as just another one; but an SM-15L as a device you can truly customize, that's a quite different story, isn't it?

I hope very much that SM will open source their upcoming patches for the SM-15L so the community can build upon them. As I see it, they are in the HW business (OK, let's disregard the 32) and publishing the Voyager patches wouldn't endanger it. Quite the opposite, the more vibrant ecosystem of alternate firmware, be it from ground up like the above or as extensions to the stock firmware, the better for their business.

[ajay_m]

To be clear here I don't think an actual RTC is needed i.e absolute time and tracks when calculator is off. What would be awesome is a stopwatch (relative time) but with the sophistication of the calculator. For example, I am coaching a bunch of young athletes. I use the device to capture lap times, accumulating each result same as sigma + would do, and at the end I have mean, standard deviation, min, max etc. which can all be captured to memory. When I get home I plug in the programming cable and download the results to my computer.

Now sure, my phone has a stopwatch. It can't do anything like this level of sophistication though, and because it's a touchscreen, I can't just hold it one hand without looking with my finger poised over the button to capture results.

Assuming that the device is crystal controlled, which I'm almost certain would be the case these days, then you should always be able to calculate relative time accurately, and most processors have an internal hi-res counter anyway (Intel/AMD CPUs do, would depend on the specific ARM SoC I imagine).

Anyway, there are just tons of places where you want to capture periodic phenomena. Another one would be a naturalist who wants to record the time between each time a bird sings, which would otherwise require recording everything and then analysing the recording later on, or someone monitoring the period of a piece of equipment like a turning wind turbine blade, etc, etc, where having relative time analysis would be just incredibly useful. (e.g if I time one rotation of the blades, I can immediately calculate rpm).

Then as I said before you have physics students doing the classical pendulum experiments, where being able to capture the period this way and feed the results directly into statistical analysis would be incredibly handy. You could just create a new HP17C (in the spirit of the HP55) that, like the HP16C, is domain-focussed, and give it an overlay, of course. In that case I'd beef up the statistics and also have solve be able to solve for a local minimum not just zero i.e given a set of results, show me the min (or possibly max) [given I can write a programmable function that given x returns f(x) = xth sample point, or it could be a continuous function, but either way I'd like to solve for a local min/max within the range, not just zero, which feels a bit constraining].

This sort of stuff is where the 'use a computer' argument kind of falls away. It's actually pretty awkward to do that, apart from the obvious fluidity of capturing results this way, having the local analysis really adds value, sure, I can ultimately whap this stuff into Excel but if I can do the obvious stuff on the machine, I have a really useful solution that justifies a handheld device. I really never understood why HP didn't develop the idea beyond the HP55.

[rprosperi]

(10-25-2024 08:43 AM)ajay_m Wrote:  To be clear here I don't think an actual RTC is needed i.e absolute time and tracks when calculator is off. What would be awesome is a stopwatch (relative time) but with the sophistication of the calculator. For example, I am coaching a bunch of young athletes. I use the device to capture lap times, accumulating each result same as sigma + would do, and at the end I have mean, standard deviation, min, max etc. which can all be captured to memory. When I get home I plug in the programming cable and download the results to my computer.

Now sure, my phone has a stopwatch. It can't do anything like this level of sophistication though, and because it's a touchscreen, I can't just hold it one hand without looking with my finger poised over the button to capture results.

Assuming that the device is crystal controlled, which I'm almost certain would be the case these days, then you should always be able to calculate relative time accurately, and most processors have an internal hi-res counter anyway (Intel/AMD CPUs do, would depend on the specific ARM SoC I imagine).

Anyway, there are just tons of places where you want to capture periodic phenomena. Another one would be a naturalist who wants to record the time between each time a bird sings, which would otherwise require recording everything and then analysing the recording later on, or someone monitoring the period of a piece of equipment like a turning wind turbine blade, etc, etc, where having relative time analysis would be just incredibly useful. (e.g if I time one rotation of the blades, I can immediately calculate rpm).

Then as I said before you have physics students doing the classical pendulum experiments, where being able to capture the period this way and feed the results directly into statistical analysis would be incredibly handy. You could just create a new HP17C (in the spirit of the HP55) that, like the HP16C, is domain-focussed, and give it an overlay, of course. In that case I'd beef up the statistics and also have solve be able to solve for a local minimum not just zero i.e given a set of results, show me the min (or possibly max) [given I can write a programmable function that given x returns f(x) = xth sample point, or it could be a continuous function, but either way I'd like to solve for a local min/max within the range, not just zero, which feels a bit constraining].

This sort of stuff is where the 'use a computer' argument kind of falls away. It's actually pretty awkward to do that, apart from the obvious fluidity of capturing results this way, having the local analysis really adds value, sure, I can ultimately whap this stuff into Excel but if I can do the obvious stuff on the machine, I have a really useful solution that justifies a handheld device. I really never understood why HP didn't develop the idea beyond the HP55.

What you want is a 41CX or even better a DM41X!! The Time module for the 41C (built into the 41CX and DM41X) has a clock and also a stopwatch feature with all kinds of features just as you describe, e.g. taking many splits, automatically storing the results into registers (for easy analysis later) and more. Check out the features in this manual (this is for the the earlier standalone ROM, so more focused):

https://literature.hpcalc.org/items/472

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-25-2024 08:11 AM)vaklaff Wrote:  Not sure if you are aware of ...

Yes I am. No offense but I use emulators (of original NUT firmware) and not simulators or rewrites.

A1

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-25-2024 08:43 AM)ajay_m Wrote:  Assuming that the device is crystal controlled, which I'm almost certain would be the case these days...

Unfortunately that is the exception rather than the rule with calculators. Most SoC's will run quite happily from a cheap RC oscillator and PLL multiplier. Since many companies are run by accountant types who want to save every penny often there's no crystal to reduce cost. So timings could vary by 10% (or more) between units.

The bottom line: no crystal = useless for accurate timing.

A1

[sirplatypus]

How do these seem like they will hold up long term? I bought a new 12c a few years ago and the keys had a ton of issues registering and became inconsistent in feel very quickly. I bought a DM15L in 2019 which I have used all the time since, but have dealt with fit and finish issues almost since day 1, having to glue the front plate in place, a peeling overlay, broken and loosely hanging on button, the screen was never fully flush against the frame on the top until I put some padding in, and now there’s spots appearing on the display. The keys are also very inconsistent and in some places gummy now after usage. Meanwhile the original 15c I bought after the DM15L still had perfect feedback and display despite being dinged up over the years.

Are these 15c CE models going to be any more trustworthy than a new 12c? I’d hate to have it fall apart on me from regular use, it’s a gorgeous piece of hardware.

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-29-2024 07:31 PM)sirplatypus Wrote:  Are these 15c CE models going to be any more trustworthy than a new 12c?

I think that this is one of those unanswerable questions. Maybe. Maybe not.

IMO the build quality of my HP-15C CE and HP-12C+ is very good but time will tell. Both are recent builds.

What I would say is that it very common these days to cost-reduce production as much as possible to maximize profit. However there are exceptions.

Thanks for the DM15L feedback though. I'd never heard anyone say that. Now I'm reconsidering buying one.

A1

[sirplatypus]

(10-29-2024 07:44 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  

(10-29-2024 07:31 PM)sirplatypus Wrote:  Are these 15c CE models going to be any more trustworthy than a new 12c?

I think that this is one of those unanswerable questions. Maybe. Maybe not.

IMO the build quality of my HP-15C CE and HP-12C+ is very good but time will tell. Both are recent builds.

What I would say is that it very common these days to cost-reduce production as much as possible to maximize profit. However there are exceptions.

Thanks for the DM15L feedback though. I'd never heard anyone say that. Now I'm reconsidering buying one.

A1

I hope I just got a rough example, but they’ve only gotten more expensive….
I do feel like despite the nice metal case, the front has never lived up to the elegance and solidity of a real HP.

[rprosperi]

(10-29-2024 07:31 PM)sirplatypus Wrote:  I bought a DM15L in 2019 which I have used all the time since, but have dealt with fit and finish issues almost since day 1, having to glue the front plate in place, a peeling overlay, broken and loosely hanging on button, the screen was never fully flush against the frame on the top until I put some padding in, and now there’s spots appearing on the display. The keys are also very inconsistent and in some places gummy now after usage.

Have you ever contacted Michael (michael@swissmicros.com) about any of these issues? All SM calculators come with a 5-year warranty and most, if not all of these issues would be covered. I'd say do so ASAP while hopefully still within the 5-years from purchase. Having made some modifications yourself to the device could lead to issues, etc. however I'm sure Michael will help you find some satisfaction, no SwissMicros owner should be unhappy with their device.

[sirplatypus]

(10-30-2024 01:01 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  

(10-29-2024 07:31 PM)sirplatypus Wrote:  I bought a DM15L in 2019 which I have used all the time since, but have dealt with fit and finish issues almost since day 1, having to glue the front plate in place, a peeling overlay, broken and loosely hanging on button, the screen was never fully flush against the frame on the top until I put some padding in, and now there’s spots appearing on the display. The keys are also very inconsistent and in some places gummy now after usage.

Have you ever contacted Michael (michael@swissmicros.com) about any of these issues? All SM calculators come with a 5-year warranty and most, if not all of these issues would be covered. I'd say do so ASAP while hopefully still within the 5-years from purchase. Having made some modifications yourself to the device could lead to issues, etc. however I'm sure Michael will help you find some satisfaction, no SwissMicros owner should be unhappy with their device.

I’m unfortunately six months out of warranty, but I should definitely shoot him an email at least about the display, as that issue is very recent and the most noticeable besides the snap disk wear. All things considered, it’s taken a very respectable amount of usage over the years and I’m glad he’s all in on keeping up production.

[HP67]

I don't remember which model, but I had a display issue years ago and Michael sent me a new LCD which was easilly fitted just by plugging in the cable.

In my view (I have 3 or 4 various DMs not including others I gave as gifts) the build quality on Swiss Micros is certainly as good as recent production HPs and in some cases (no pun intended) better. For example, the titanium housing of the DMs is really nice and solid, and feels better than the plastic HP cases.

Support from S/M is certainly better than what you can get from other manufacturers both in terms of parts and advice, but also firmware updates.

I gave a DM 16L to a friend as a gift. He had problems with it eating batteries. He flashed the latest firmware years ago and has not had a problem since.

I have a 15CE also, but don't use it much. The 16L and an HP 48 are my usual gotos.

[sirplatypus]

(10-30-2024 08:12 AM)HP67 Wrote:  I don't remember which model, but I had a display issue years ago and Michael sent me a new LCD which was easilly fitted just by plugging in the cable.

In my view (I have 3 or 4 various DMs not including others I gave as gifts) the build quality on Swiss Micros is certainly as good as recent production HPs and in some cases (no pun intended) better. For example, the titanium housing of the DMs is really nice and solid, and feels better than the plastic HP cases.

Support from S/M is certainly better than what you can get from other manufacturers both in terms of parts and advice, but also firmware updates.

I gave a DM 16L to a friend as a gift. He had problems with it eating batteries. He flashed the latest firmware years ago and has not had a problem since.

I have a 15CE also, but don't use it much. The 16L and an HP 48 are my usual gotos.

I sent him an email detailing the issues, at this point I use the calculator daily and don’t particularly care if it’s pristine or not, but hopefully he finds it useful to have a record of. What I’d really love to see one day is a DM15L remake with the fit and finish of the DM42, I always loved the button feel and shape, the color scheme, material feel, and the screen fitment compared to the voyager remakes which always seemed less polished to me….

Regardless, I intend to continue using my DM15L, and have ordered two 15c CEs which will go into the collection with my 15c original, 11c, 12c from the early 2000s, DM42, and 35s.

My hp prime battery blew up, I should replace that but I’m long out of school where a CAS calculator is of use to me.

Hope to see a 16C CE come out soon.

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-30-2024 02:41 PM)sirplatypus Wrote:  Hope to see a 16C CE come out soon.

The HP-15C CE has a 16C mode so why? Some buy a 12C or CE just to get a 16C out of it.

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22...#pid194290

A1

[gentzel]

(10-30-2024 02:54 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Some buy a 12C or CE just to get a 16C out of it.

I've converted a cheap 12C to a pseudo-16C and it does work well, but the overlay is no replacement for a real 16C keypad.

[AnnoyedOne]

(10-30-2024 01:01 AM)rprosperi Wrote:  All SM calculators come with a 5-year warranty...

Does that warranty cover shipping both ways. I assume not so if you don't live in the EU returning any faulty unit could be expensive.

A few years ago I purchased a product (mostly mechanical) new that had a one year "warranty". It seized up after some 4 months of use so I contacted the manufacturer by email. It turned out that I'd have to return the product, in the original box (long gone), at my cost. Not worth it! One day I'll get really bored and will fix it myself. Probably just a bearing/lubrication issue.

A1

[Dave Frederickson]

(10-30-2024 05:17 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  Probably just a bearing/lubrication issue.

From the Boy Scouts:
If it moves and it's not supposed to, use duct tape.
If it doesn't move and is supposed to, use WD-40.

[HP67]

(10-30-2024 02:54 PM)AnnoyedOne Wrote:  

(10-30-2024 02:41 PM)sirplatypus Wrote:  Hope to see a 16C CE come out soon.

The HP-15C CE has a 16C mode so why? Some buy a 12C or CE just to get a 16C out of it.

https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-22...#pid194290

A1

I agree that a 16 CE would be a great idea, and I would buy at least 2.

The rubber overlay for the 15CE 16 mode is certainly welcome, but it is not very practical.

[jthole]

I finally broke down, and took advantage of The Calculator Store's HP-15C Enhanced offer ... the backup and restore facility, debouncing pre-configured, and the cable together with the calculator, was too much to resist :-)

Shipping from Spain to the Netherlands ... should be here soon!