Comparing 15c ans 35s

[Mark Hardman]

(02-14-2015 06:46 PM)Steve Simpkin Wrote:  I can only imagine the reaction of an average person to the passion shown by individuals here for a particular calculator model. A calculator? Really? I know the looks me family give me when I stare lovingly at my HP-25 whenever I fire it up just to enjoy its feel and operation.

That said, you are all very mistaken. My HP-48SX is the finest calculator ever produced

I am passionate for all of my non-Kinpo HP calculators. But, it is as if Marcus had not even read Valentin's defense of the 15C as quoted by Jeff. (Where have I heard those words before?) To have the words of The Master ignored is infuriating.

I also share your love and passion for the 48SX. I only wish that it had more processing power.

ETD: Comment that was inappropriate considering recent moderator events.

[MarkHaysHarris777]

(02-14-2015 06:46 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  In testing some of my work I encountered the dreaded bug 15 lock up and subsequent complete loss of memory. Said 35s made a lovely arc from my hand to the trash can.

For the record, none of my words (in this thread) are pejorative:
relic: as in Holy relic
by gone era: as in, those were the good 'ol days
nostalgic: as in 'longing for the past'

I do actually understand your sentiment, having high expectations of the 35s and losing all your work do to a programming glitch (what I call the gotch-ya). Having said that, my 35s has not (and will not) lock up--- ever. 1) I don't use equations to prompt in a program, and 2) if I did I would use a PSE or STOP with it, and 3) I do not allow my programs to infinite loop (what I call a tight loop). So, no problema!

You do realize that you're allowing yourself to become emotional over a, um, calculator, right? I could see it if you got emotional over the Green Bay Packers, or the game of Cricket, or maybe even ice hockey, but (a calculator?).

:-O

Cheers,
marcus

[Mark Hardman]

(02-14-2015 08:07 PM)MarkHaysHarris777 Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 06:46 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  In testing some of my work I encountered the dreaded bug 15 lock up and subsequent complete loss of memory. Said 35s made a lovely arc from my hand to the trash can.

For the record, none of my words (in this thread) are pejorative:
relic: as in Holy relic

You do realize that you're allowing yourself to become emotional over a, um, calculator, right?

Cheers,
marcus

"Holy relic" and "relic" are two completely different things. In my opinion, they are still both pejorative in the context used. Write what you mean and mean what you write.

God, I'm channeling Walter now.

Who are you to judge what I am "emotional" about? I've seen college age men come to blows over the merits of the HP67 vs. TI59. You seem to be blind to the fact that you've landed in a community of people who really are more passionate about their collection of calculators than their regional cricket, football or basketball teams. Keep treating us rudely and you will get an appropriate response.

You can drop the inane smiley face. There is nothing friendly in this discussion.

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(02-14-2015 03:26 PM)Jeff_Kearns Wrote:  This discussion comes up every once in a while and it is nice to see the new forum addressing these questions. An almost identical thread was started in 2003 concerning the 15C vs the 32sii, and one of the contributors - Valentin Albillo, wrote the following:

"Here are a few reasons why the HP-15C is better than the HP32S/SII:

Jeff, thank you for pointing out this thread from the old forum. It makes me glad I have a 15C, and also reminds me that I need to explore some features pointed out in Valentin's post that I have not. My 48sx is what I know like the back of my hand, but the 15C is the only calculator I will bring into a meeting.

[MarkHaysHarris777]

(02-14-2015 08:24 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  Who are you to judge what I am "emotional" about?

I'm a critical realist. I gave an honest critical appraisal of the merits and pitfalls of the 15C vs the 35s... the topic of this thread. There is no emotion in it. Clearly, you are over-reacting/ and as for my part, it is very friendly.

Cheers,
marcus

[Mark Hardman]

(02-14-2015 08:53 PM)MarkHaysHarris777 Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 08:24 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  Who are you to judge what I am "emotional" about?

I'm a critical realist. I gave an honest critical appraisal of the merits and pitfalls of the 15C vs the 35s... the topic of this thread. There is no emotion in it. Clearly, you are over-reacting/ and as for my part, it is very friendly.

Cheers,
marcus

Then for god's sake defend your position and stop trying to provide a psychoanalysis of the proceedings.

Personally, I've used the complex capabilities of both the 15C and 35s in signal analysis. The 15C is my constant companion because it solves the problems I deal with on a daily basis. The 35s is in a landfill in some suburb of Houston because you have to walk through a minefield in order to write a simple program.

[Mark Hardman]

(02-14-2015 08:36 PM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  Jeff, thank you for pointing out this thread from the old forum. It makes me glad I have a 15C, and also reminds me that I need to explore some features pointed out in Valentin's post that I have not. My 48sx is what I know like the back of my hand, but the 15C is the only calculator I will bring into a meeting.

All of Valentin's old posts are worthy of re-reading. He added a level of erudition to the discussions that has seldom been met.

Sanjeev, the first time I went into a meeting and pulled out my 48GX it attracted more attention than it deserved (or than I wanted). Since then, like you, the 15C is the only calculator I'll take into a meeting. Most people assume its just the ubiquitous HP-12C.

[Tugdual]

I started this thread because when I purchased the 35s I didn't realize it would be so good. I just wanted something quick and simple less expensive than the 15C (collector) or the 15C LE (obviously as coveted as the original one) that I couldn't lose or get stolen since I often travel. Then I realized that this little toy was pretty powerful and could truly compare with the 15C which was way above my original expectations. Pro & con's have already been discussed quite in detail in other threads and I like this one http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/...ead=192663.

Now if the 15C has matrices I have to confess that nothing can compete with the Prime for matrix entry and graphical representation as well as calculation speed. Same comment for complex numbers and it is true that the 15c shows it's age by comparison. Also programming the 35s with proper representation of op codes makes it very user friendly in my opinion. The 35s has indeed some flaws and it has grown a reputation that I find unfair. I haven't yet come to the conclusion that the 35s is erratic and unpredictable. I am quite possibly very less demanding than some expert users on this forum and when I read the compiled list of bugs and put things in perspective, I don't feel in great danger. This is just my humble opinion and I can understand the frustration of HP users used to a much better product quality.

[Jlouis]

(02-14-2015 09:19 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 08:36 PM)Sanjeev Visvanatha Wrote:  Jeff, thank you for pointing out this thread from the old forum. It makes me glad I have a 15C, and also reminds me that I need to explore some features pointed out in Valentin's post that I have not. My 48sx is what I know like the back of my hand, but the 15C is the only calculator I will bring into a meeting.

All of Valentin's old posts are worthy of re-reading. He added a level of erudition to the discussions that has seldom been met.

Sanjeev, the first time I went into a meeting and pulled out my 48GX it attracted more attention than it deserved (or than I wanted). Since then, like you, the 15C is the only calculator I'll take into a meeting. Most people assume its just the ubiquitous HP-12C.

+1

Why everybody think that we are using a 12c?

[Mark Hardman]

(02-14-2015 09:45 PM)Jlouis Wrote:  Why everybody think that we are using a 12c?

Because there are more accountants than engineers in the world.

[Mark Hardman]

(02-14-2015 09:45 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Now if the 15C has matrices I have to confess that nothing can compete with the Prime for matrix entry and graphical representation as well as calculation speed.

I admit that the HP Prime is quickly working its way into my daily workflow. But it galls me to no end that RPN is not fully implemented. I frequently revert to using it in textbook or algebraic mode--and that just makes me feel dirty all over.

(02-14-2015 09:45 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  Same comment for complex numbers and it is true that the 15c shows it's age by comparison.

Fair comparison. Again the HP Prime is ahead of the 15C. But this thread (your thread) isn't a comparison of the capabilities of the Prime vs. the 15C. Complex support on the 35s is abominable.

(02-14-2015 09:45 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  I haven't yet come to the conclusion that the 35s is erratic and unpredictable. I am quite possibly very less demanding than some expert users on this forum and when I read the compiled list of bugs and put things in perspective, I don't feel in great danger.

Bug 15 is the killer for me. For a calculator without any I/O capabilities, the risk of this bug causing program and data loss makes this calculator too risky for my use. I look at the eBay auctions for 35s's preloaded for PE/FE exams and I think to myself, "I hope the buyers have a plan B at exam time."

(02-14-2015 09:45 PM)Tugdual Wrote:  This is just my humble opinion and I can understand the frustration of HP users used to a much better product quality.

Part of the frustration is that these are topics that have been discussed to death since 2007.

Thank you for the rational defense of the 35s. I've re-read the bug list and do agree that some of the items there are simply nitpicking.

[MarkHaysHarris777]

(02-14-2015 10:25 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  Bug 15 is the killer for me. For a calculator without any I/O capabilities, the risk of this bug causing program and data loss makes this calculator too risky for my use. I look at the eBay auctions for 35s's preloaded for PE/FE exams and I think to myself, "I hope the buyers have a plan B at exam time."
. . .
Thank you for the rational defense of the 35s. I've re-read the bug list and do agree that some of the items there are simply nitpicking.

Bug (15) is also nitpicking; once the user is aware of the issue, there is no problem. There is absolutely NO risk what-so-ever using the HP35s on any NCEES exam (and many people are doing just that today). Of the three calculator types allowed on the exam you'll notice the 15C isn't one of them. There is an easy 10 : 1 advantage for using the HP35s on the FE exam over either the FX115es Plus, or the TI 36x Pro. Neither of the others is programmable and neither of the other two allow for RPN-- arguably giving the 35s easily a 3 : 1 advantage over the others in speed and clarity (much easier to make sure things are right because of the control over execution and the intermediate results display).

Bug (15) is not fair. Its like saying, "If I shoot myself in the foot I'm risking a high degree of pain".

Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Cheers,
marcus

[MarkHaysHarris777]

(02-14-2015 11:26 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  

(02-14-2015 11:13 PM)MarkHaysHarris777 Wrote:  Bug (15) is is also nitpicking; once the user is aware of the issue, there is no problem. There is absolutely NO risk what-so-ever using the HP35s on any NCEES exam (and many people are doing just that today). . . .

Bug (15) is not fair. Its like saying, "If I shoot myself in the foot I'm risking a high degree of pain".

Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Cheers,
marcus

Thanks for the patronizing TL;DR. You must be a lot of laughs at parties.

I now have a second entry in my killfile.

Mark, there is no patronizing language in my analysis, nor in my communication of same. So, 1) we're not at a party-- we're discussing a calculator, 2) you have made several inaccurate statements, and you have over-reacted to non-emotional sound analysis which at least deserves retort, so 3) I'm suspecting you're really just an internet troll (maybe you have a 15C, and maybe you don't).

You are not alone of course in your un-fair criticism (land-filling) analysis of the 35s. There are several (some on this forum) who believe that the 35s programming gotch-ya is somehow a random occurrence that can sneak up and bite you on the arss if you aren't suspecting it... and nothing could be further from the truth. There is a cause & effect relationship going on... if you allow the cause, you'll get the effect (if you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got). On the other hand, if you don't allow the cause, you'll NEVER see the effect (if nothing changes nothing changes). If you understand the 35s (and its caveats) it is a wonderful instrument for personal and professional use.

PS Isn't it interesting, that when a person places another member on their kill list, they always feel the need to announce it-~! Like, "I'm gonna put you on my kill list you patronizing scum bag, so there, nah... " Why don't they ever just quietly put the other person on their kill list?

PSS Have a good night; maybe tomorrow will be better.

Cheers,
marcus

[Jlouis]

Well, after a very good debate, I think that everybody have their points, and all are valid.

For my side, I just don't use calculators for a living anymore. I just like them and have fun with them (but I will start a graduation in maths this year, but that's another story).

But, on the other side, if I would use them for high precise maths, that needs accountability, I would never, ever would use a tool that could have The smallest sign of a doubt.

That Said, I think the 35s is a very pretty calculator, very sexy, and I like to use it (but the 33s is ugly as hell, but I like to use it too, go figure).

As for the 15c it is as hot as the hottiest woman on Earth (I apologize to any girl that read this).

P.S.: Sorry for my bad english, for I am not a native english speaker and have drank some beers.

Cheers (and Peace).

[Sanjeev Visvanatha]

(02-14-2015 09:19 PM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  Sanjeev, the first time I went into a meeting and pulled out my 48GX it attracted more attention than it deserved (or than I wanted). Since then, like you, the 15C is the only calculator I'll take into a meeting. Most people assume its just the ubiquitous HP-12C.

I hadn't thought of them thinking it's a 12C. My rationale is that it's small, powerful and professional looking.

And, by the way, my generation of 1st year Engineering students had shiny new 48sx models, since they were the thing to have. The 15C came a full decade before my academic needs required me to have a programmable calculator. A sure testament to the Voyager design that it appeals to a younger professional group.

[Mark Hardman]

(02-15-2015 01:28 AM)Jlouis Wrote:  Well, after a very good debate, I think that everybody have their points, and all are valid.

As for the 15c it is as hot as the hottiest woman on Earth (I apologize to any girl that read this).

P.S.: Sorry for my bad english, for I am not a native english speaker and have drank some beers.

Cheers (and Peace).

In the name of science, I just informed my wife that she is as as lovely as my HP-15C. She countered with, "But am I more beautiful than the HP-42S?"

Too bad that its the 32K version of the HP-42S that I current have here at home.

I'm sleeping on the couch tonight.

[Massimo Gnerucci]

(02-15-2015 01:53 AM)Mark Hardman Wrote:  

(02-15-2015 01:28 AM)Jlouis Wrote:  Well, after a very good debate, I think that everybody have their points, and all are valid.

As for the 15c it is as hot as the hottiest woman on Earth (I apologize to any girl that read this).

P.S.: Sorry for my bad english, for I am not a native english speaker and have drank some beers.

Cheers (and Peace).

In the name of science, I just informed my wife that she is as as lovely as my HP-15C. She countered with, "But am I more beautiful than the HP-42S?"

Too bad that its the 32K version of the HP-42S that I current have here at home.

I'm sleeping on the couch tonight.

:)

But internet trolls don't sleep on a couch... ;)
Ooops, he's on your killfile, so you didn't read it.

[Mark Hardman]

(02-15-2015 02:00 AM)Massimo Gnerucci Wrote:  

But internet trolls don't sleep on a couch...
Ooops, he's on your killfile, so you didn't read it.

In that case, I'll be sleeping under the Buffalo Bayou bridge tonight.

[Condo]

In the name of science, I just informed my wife that she is as as lovely as my HP-15C.

What says Happy Valentines Day better than that!! I'm going to try that on my wife. I can just squeeze that in before the night is over. Thanks for the inspiration !!

[Tugdual]

My cat has made a choice and the winner is: